User talk:Milton Beychok

Milton Beychok

Current talk page

Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, Archive 4, Archive 5, Archive 6, Archive 7, Archive 8, Archive 9, Archive 10, Archive 11, Archive 12

 Where Milt lives it is approximately: 03:43

Just archived my last Talk page (Archive 6)

So things look a bit bare here right now. I don't think that will last long. Milton Beychok 05:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

NDOTW & AOTW

Hi Milt, sorry for causing confusion, and thanks for being blunt. The reason I did that was that the AOTW as visible on the Welcome page then did neither link to the approved version nor to the draft, it did not contain an image, and the "read more" started right after the text, with no space in between. Since I cannot edit approved articles, I did a temporary fix and thought I'd marked it clearly as such in my edit summaries. If not, please excuse, and I will pay more attention in the future. However, I honestly hope we can integrate the preparation for transclusion into the approval process (and clear the backlog for those approved so far). We are waiting for Larry to approve the proposed solution via a dedicated Transclusion subpage. --Daniel Mietchen 08:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Daniel, the real point is that all of us do not understand how templates are coded. So when a template is revised temporarily, the revision should be removed as soon as possible ... or an explanation should be provided as to how others can remove the temporary change. Anyway, I am happy that Caesar fixed it. Milton Beychok 18:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The Canterbury Tales

Hi, Milton, I fear you flatter me: I certainly do have the time, but the expertise is lacking. I never read much of Chaucer, nor of his contemporaries William Langland and the Gawain poet - they could perhaps be included, but wouldn't related articles require a lot of background on England in the Middle Ages? I'm no historian, but if there any concrete ways in which I could help out, do let me know. Ro Thorpe 13:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Specialist supporter

I thought it was a routine editing matter to change a vote of an Editor in a relevant workgroup to Specialist -- that's the essential definition of a specialist. In this case, since it involves a new Editor, he might not have known the distinction (an aside -- one reason why I don't think people should be Editors from Day 1). If it bothers you, it can move back. I suppose there's a certain level of proceduralism that makes me uncomfortable that we are more worried about appearance than content. Certainly, I think we've gone far beyond that when a minor edit suddenly makes it impossible for an Editor to do a single Approval. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I accidently saw this. Allow me to comment it: I did not add my name as a specialist supporter because the rules on the page say: "Add your name in the Specialist supporters column only if you are an editor who is an expert about the topic in question." It says expert about the topic. For me topic is narrower than "workgroup". When I noticed that Howard changed this, I assumed that it should be interpreted as "workgroup", when you changed it back I was puzzled and realized that the rules might be a matter of interpretation. (This probably should be clarified.) May I add that it is a rather minor and quite unimportant risk whether a new editor votes with his full power or not. (There might be other risks.)
On the other topic mentioned: It really should be clarified when an editor loses the right to approve an article single-handedly, in particular, since active editors seem to be extremely rare. I think that some contributing should be allowed. And one should be aware that suggesting edits on the talk page may have the same effect as editing the page directly. The criteria should be independent of such manipulations. Peter Schmitt 20:16, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

(fixed formatting) I hadn't thought about the topic vs. workgroup, since I had always read it as workgroup. Article/draft of the week are fairly minor things, so I'm not too worried, but the granularity of "workgroup" remains a problem. I remember a noncontroversial item a while back, in an article under the Religion workgroup, citing a news item about tear gas. When I simply commented on the talk page that neither the chemical or the grenade worked that way, I wasn't doing so as a Military editor. In like manner, any of us might be an expert on a specific topic outside a workgroup.

Joe Quick, I believe, has been thinking about ways to use outside experts simply as reviewers. This is one possible way to deal with the situation where there is one active Editor who is also the author. There are times where an Author Citizen is an expert on a particular topic -- I remember an occasion when I was writing generally about a piece of military electronics that another Citizen had operated and maintained. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with both of you that the interpretation as to the meaning of "specialist" (in the context of Article/New Draft of the week) is a minor item. What made me uncomfortable, Howard, was the fact that someone other other than Peter changed Peter's vote. I think that voting changes should only be made by the person who voted. I would not have been the least bit uncomfortable if Peter had changed his vote himself. Milton Beychok 22:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, it was changing my voice only if I may choose to vote as a specialist or not. If not, then it only was "putting my vote into the correct urn". I still don't know what is case. If "specialist"="editor in the workgroup and if one is supposed to vote as such then I would change it myself. Peter Schmitt 23:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I can only express my opinion. I do not think that an editor in a particular work group is automatically an "expert" in every subject included in that workgroup. For example, I am an editor in the engineering workgroup but my academic degree and all of my experience is in the field of chemical engineering which is but one of the many fields of engineering. I do not consider myself an expert in civil engineering or electrical engineering or aeronautical engineering. I am also fairly sure that a medical doctor who has 30 years or more experience in dermatology would not consider himself an expert in brain surgery. As another example, my good friend Howard is an engineering editor but I am fairly sure that there are many fields of engineering in which he doesn't consider himself an "expert".

I have stressed the word "expert" because "specialist supporters" of Articles and New Drafts of the week are defined as "an editor who is an expert about the topic in question". I don't see how that can be interpreted other than as I have done. Milton Beychok 00:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So my first interpretation of the rule is also your interpretation of that rule, and I do not consider me as a specialist. (However, I shall probably nominate the article for approval, sooner or later.) Peter Schmitt 00:51, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Joule-Thomson effect

Milton, please read my comments on the talk page of Joule-Thomson effect. David E. Volk 15:51, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Glad to copyedit

Thanks for noticing; I'm glad the project has grown large enough that occasional copy editing is of service. Jesse Weinstein 17:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for archiving Talk page Chemical elements

Milton, thanks. Can you give me a brief summary on how to archive. Much appreciated. Anthony.Sebastian 18:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding references speaking for themselves

Milton, you say references speak for themselves, and I agree. But I disagree no copy from the reference should accompany its citation. Including copy, such as an abstract or an excerpt, has several values that contribute to the quality of the article:

1. It improves the content value of the article itself by providing pertinent textual informational not contained in the Main Article text.
2. It provides that additional informational content without requiring the reader to link away from the Main Article, interrupting the flow of the Main Article.
3. It renders the article more encyclopedic, in the sense of comprehensiveness. The reader gets a bigger picture from the article without having to get that bigger picture through chasing down the references.
4. If the reader wants to contribute as a collaborator, having that bigger picture may open new areas for them to help develop the article.

I could spell out other values of the practice particular to particular instances.

I prefer to keep the annotations to the references, for those and other reasons, both practical and scholarly.

Thank you for considering this. Anthony.Sebastian 01:53, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Anthony, I think that one or two brief sentences (and I do mean one or two brief sentences) as annotations are okay. But I do not believe that extensive extracts or excerpts should be used. And I strongly object to including a "publisher's description" of a book or article ... those are just hype to promote purchase of the book or article.

In my own articles, if a reference contains useful information that is pertinent the articles, then I work that content into the main text of the article where it is relevant ... rather than annotate the reference with an extensive abstract or excerpt.

The way to render an article more encylopedic is to do make the main article text more comprehensive ... rather using the references for that purpose.

The whole idea of linking words to another article is what makes an online encylopedia more interesting and easier to use than a printed encyclopedia. If each article tried to avoid word links by explaining words via reference annotations, then we would soon have a number of articles (written by different authors) all explaining the same word or words in a different manner ... which really would confuse readers! For example, there may be dozens of aricles using the words "chemical reaction". If they all link to the same collaboratively written and agreed upon article entitled "Chemical reaction" ... then they all provide the same information as they should. However,if each of those dozens of article attempts to explain "chemical reactions" by a footnote or by an annotated reference, then readers will have dozens of different explanations of "chemical reactions" ... which is not as it should be.

In closing, I just looked at a good number of articles by David Volk, by Daniel Mietchen, by Paul Wormer and one article that was contributed to extensively by Sekha Telluri, David Volk and Daniel Mietchen. None those included annotated references or "further reading" sections by more than 1 or perhaps 2 sentence. In fact, most of their references had no annotation at all. So it is fairly obvious, that I am not the only one that doesn't believe in overly extensive annotation of references or footnotes. Milton Beychok 03:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Milton, we seem to have a difference of opinion, each strongly held. I believe we also have a difference in pedagogic style. Neither emerge rarely in collaborative writing projects. Nevertheless, I understand your points, and consider them valid from the perspective you offer. Anthony.Sebastian 03:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Anthony. I hope we are still friends. Regards, Milton Beychok 03:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Grand Trunk Railway

Milton, I just nominated this one for approval. Please look it over. It's in the engineering workgroup. Thanks. Russell D. Jones 20:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Russell, I responded on the article's talk page at Talk:Grand Trunk Railway. Regards, Milton Beychok 22:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Russell updated the version of Grand Trunk Railway to be approved to the most recent revision and the article is just about ready to go, but we need you to have a look over those changes and let us know whether you also agree with them. Once we've heard from you and Milt, Hayford or Matt can make it official. Thanks much. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 12:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Screaming Lords and Generals

I removed my nomination, somewhat sadly, of Screaming Lord Sutch so I wouldn't have two nominations in NDOTW. The former is still transcluded; I didn't see it gaining support and felt I had a strong new offering. Howard C. Berkowitz 23:30, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll remove the transcluding this evening. Milton Beychok 23:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Diaper

Did this catch your eye, for editing, since it's so involved with accidental releases? Howard C. Berkowitz 04:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Howard, I repeat what I have said before, you would make a great stand-up comedian! Milton Beychok 04:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

P.S. That article did link to the UK Environment Agency. Milton Beychok 04:37, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Articles on books...

I'd like to write an article on a book I recently read, The Age of Ra by James Lovegrove, and I wanted to take the time to ask a couple people about the mechanics of articles about books.

1. Are plot summaries ok?
2. Are lists of Characters ok, main characters or otherwise?
3. Is it ok to take a picture of the front cover to use as a picture for the article?
4. Is it ok to include an average retail price?

and finally

If included, should any of these things be put on a subpage?

Thanks Milton - Drew R. Smith 05:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Drew, the only books I have written about are engineering textbooks ... no plots and no characters. As for photographing the covers and uploading them into CZ, I think you would most definitely need to obtain permission from the publishers.

It would be my opinion that you definitely should not include any retail prices ... nor do I see how that information is needed in a book article. Regards, Milton Beychok 06:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Mauna Kea Transclusion tags

I know alot of work goes into running NDOTW and AOTW, so I want to start by saying I'm not complaining or griping at you. Actually, I want to show you something.

If you look here you can see a bit of white space between the subpages and the lede. Since the coordinates template was there I neither worried about it, nor did I realise that it had anything to do with the transclusion stuff. If you look here, you can see it without the coordinates (which I moved to the infobox), and the white space is still there. I looked at the source for the page (which can be seen here), and found that when you added the includeonly tags around the picture it also added some white space. The solution can be seen here, or here. So, if you need to do something like that in the future, you now know how to avoid the extra whitespace. Drew R. Smith 22:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Drew. I usually do manage to eliminate any extra white space. I do most of the transclusion stuff fairly late in the evening and I guess I missed eliminating the white space on your article. Sorry about that and thanks for fixing it. Milton Beychok 22:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No problem. I assumed that having to add the extra image within the includeonly tags is what threw you off. As you said, you usually do eliminate whitespace. Drew R. Smith 04:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Barometric formula

Hello Milton, I read the US report on atmosphere and I see how one can derive (without Boltzmann) your two pressure equations in Earth's atmosphere. I'm considering writing Barometric formula, but since it may interfere with your lapse rate, it seemed better to me to synchronize it with you first. --Paul Wormer 09:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Paul, I am not sure how your Barometric formula article would interfere with the Atmospheric lapse rate article I am writing. You can see my article in progress at User:Milton Beychok/Sandbox and judge for yourself. I am about 75% finished with it. I might even finish it today. As I said above, I am no expert on atmospheric science or meteorology ... I just thought the Earth's atmosphere and Atmospheric lapse rate articles were needed to fit in with my air pollution dispersion modeling articles ... so I wrote them. Milton Beychok 15:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I had a look at your sandbox and see no interference. Basically all I will do is give the derivation of your two equations. (If we had plenty of articles the derivation could go well as an addendum to Earth's atmosphere, but since everybody always uses the # of articles as a criterion, it is better to make a new article out of it). --Paul Wormer 15:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Reply

I have replied to your question on my talk page Drew R. Smith 09:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this concept used in your engineering disciplines?

Would you take a look at separation of concerns and see if it's familiar in other engineering disciplines, perhaps adding a note if so? Thanks. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Howard, I have never heard of that concept nor have I ever read about it, but keep in mind that I retired about 10-12 years ago. Milton Beychok 20:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Images

Hi Milton, following your request on the forums regarding copyright checking, I looked through your User:Milton Beychok/Gallery3 and turned up some minor issues, which should be fairly easy to resolve.

• Image:RIVM_building.jpg

You stated that the image is copyrighted but may be reused. I have searched the website you gave as a source, and can find no copyright information. Can you please point me to where you found the copyright information?

• Image:Reliance Industries Ltd. Refinery.jpg

You stated that the image is in the public domain. I searched the website you gave as a source, but found no copyright information. Can you point me to the copyright information?

• Image:German Petrochem Plant.jpg

You stated that the image was used by permission. However, I think some of Caesar's changing the upload forms removed or hid the permissions for the image. Could you please point me to the permission page, or re-make it? If you can't find it, I can send out an email re-asking for permission.

Also, I noticed on some of the images you created yourself you didn't color in the holes in the letters, as seen here [:Image:Petrochem Feedstocks.png]]. If you want, I can fix those for you.

I will look through the rest as time permits. Drew R. Smith 09:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)