Talk:Catholic Church

Structure of the article

I'd like to start on an article on Roman Catholicism. I've never written an encyclopedia article before, and certainly not on a subject so broad. I suppose it should be mostly historical, as things like dogma, liturgy, theology, etc. are primarily historical (they play out in history), but I imagine this would be unwieldy. I guess I'd like to spearhead a conversation about how the article should be structured.

I'd like to avoid the wikipedia article if I can. Also, I am a Roman Catholic and rounding out a Masters degree in theology from a Catholic university. So I'm rather excited to be working on this article! --Adam P. Verslype 00:50, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

There's an article here on Catholicism already, so there's probably scope to create a large article on the Catholic Church in general, and smaller articles on the Roman church and each of the other 20-odd churches in communion with Rome.

Unfortunately for your intentions, the articles at Wikipedia are actually of pretty good quality, so it's going to be hard to create a good article on the Roman Catholic Church de novo. However, given your qualifications, you're probably better-placed to do so than most. Anthony Argyriou 18:47, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

Points of view

Copying comments placed at Catholicism, as the subject matter to which they refer has been placed here. Aleta Curry 19:18, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

"Catholicism is structured into 22 distinct Churches, all of which are in communion with the Pope."

A. List those 22 churches and show the reference.

B. Last I heard is that everyone including those not in communion with the Pope (in Rome) are in communion with Pavel and he is the Orthodox Archbishop of Pec, Metropolitan of Belgrade-Karlovci and the Serbian Patriarch.

C. There is another Pope and he is in Alexandria.

For example:

"the Pope was canonically required to have his ordination approved by the Eastern Roman Emperor until the title was bestowed on Charlemagne in 800."

Source needed. If it is canonical--and I can not remember reading this one--then it is more than likely still canonical since there have only been a few repeals of Canons of the Ecumenical Councils which can not categorically be unilaterally repealed or amended and there were in fact no councils after the 8th century which means this one is referring to a canon that would have been changed when? The 9th century? Which means it would definitley not be Ecumenical. I ran through the canons of the Seventh Council and did not find this. Has any one got an actual reference?

FYI The Pope or the Bishop of Rome actually placed the Crown on Charlemagne's head at that ceremony in Reims and if I remember correctly it was purely a political move that caught Charlemagne by surprise. See for example Will Durant's Version

And this one is just plain wrong:

“With the exception of the Maronite Catholic Church, Catholicism would remain a strictly Western Institution until after the Counter-Reformation.

• The Eastern Orthodox Church has, since its beginning, been Catholic – Universal - and has provided the liturgy in the language of the parishioners and made a point of educating and ordaining the indigenous peoples, unlike the Latin Church.
• The counter-reformation had what effect upon the Eastern Orthodox Church that made it Catholic?

--Thomas Simmons 21:34, 5 May 2007 (CDT) +17 hours

Thomas Simmons has a point, and it's one which needs to be worked out, probably by some sort of decision from On High. There's a pretty good discussion of this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church#Terminology

To answer Thomas's point A: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches#List_of_Eastern_Catholic_Churches

Anthony Argyriou 14:09, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

Structure proposal

There are currently 3 articles on this or related topics, to wit: Catholicism, History of the Papacy, and the present article Roman Catholic Church, the latter of which is mainly concerned (at present) with the history of the Roman Catholic Church. I would propose the following:

1. Roman Catholic Church - to be mainly concerned with the present-day beliefs and practices of the Church;
2. History of the Roman Catholic Church - to which most of the content of the present article be moved; and
3. History of the Papacy - concerned with the historical development of the institution of the papacy within the church (this would a hisotry of the papacy, not a history of the popes, and should be distinguishable from the hisotry of the church)

The Catholicism article would then be merged with the present article.

Follows a draft outline of the subject contents related to the beliefs and practices of the Roman Catholic Church:

(A) Sturcture and organization

• Apostolic succession
• Papacy
• College of Cardinals
• Episcopate
• Priesthood
• Laity
• Religious communities
• Ecumenical councils

(B) Liturgy and worship

• Sacraments
• Baptism
• Confirmation
• Eucharist (and the Mass)
• Penance
• Extreme Unction
• Orders
• Matrimony

(C) Doctrine and beliefs

• Faith
• Church Magisterium
• Tradition and Scripture
• Theology and Devotion

(D) Activities

• Saints
• Education
• Parish

(E) Current issues facing the Church

James F. Perry 10:45, 18 January 2008 (CST)

clarification: regarding the Caholicism article: that content which is specific to the Roman Catholic Church should be moved to this article. The Catholicism article itself should have its own defined scope (no redirect), since it is not strictly identical to the Roman Catholic Church. James F. Perry 10:52, 18 January 2008 (CST)

Hi James. I could not easily figure out who was talking about what, so I moved your proposal to its own section, and in keeping with our policy it's now in date order.

My two bob's worth:

• Catholicism is not the same as R.C. church, so must reside at its own space. Should contain elements common to all forms of catholicism, and discussion of differences, debates, ambiguity, ecumenism, blah blah--with as much/as little specification as is needed.

My gut feeling is that History of the Papacy should live at the Papacy or Pope cluster. Same with History of the Roman Catholic Church.

• CZ clusters distinguish us; let's use 'em.

Aleta Curry 17:10, 18 January 2008 (CST)

Format

The table of contents is messing up the list format in the first section (at least on this computer). Can someone with the technical knowledge look at this? Peter Jackson 12:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Orders and societies

Following the recent edits to Opus Dei's Spirituality, it seems sensible that we might want to clean up the coverage of Orders and Societies of the Church. The Other Wiki has Roman Catholic religious order and Category:Roman Catholic orders and societies. Anyone want to take a stab at how we sort this out? We've got Roman Catholic Church/Catalogs, which needs linkifying and perhaps could be a place to list all the various Orders and Societies. --Tom Morris 13:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Why not add a timeline subpage?

A timeline subpage could be used to provide links to authoritative sources on the events listed, and that would be a valuable timesaver for students who wish to pursue issues in depth - just a suggestion.Nick Gardner 10:54, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Title

Although it is true that 'Catholic Church' is how the members and many non-members alike refer to the Roman Catholic Church, it's inaccurate because many other groups call themselves by that name. I suggest moving it back to Roman Catholic Church. John Stephenson 11:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, I don't think there are any other bodies that use it as a name. Nearest is something called the Catholic Church of God. However, there are certainly other groups that claim to be part of the Catholic Church in what they consider to be its true sense, and I suspect the Eastern Orthodox Church claims that it is the Catholic Church in the "true" sense. So my inclination is to agree with you about the title of the article. You might like to look through the talk archives at Wikipedia, where they've argued the question at great length. Peter Jackson 10:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC)