User talk:Hayford Peirce: Difference between revisions

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==[[2012]]==
I wrote this article quickly, probably could use an experienced writer such as yourself (if interested) to spruce it up. Big traffic driver.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 17:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:I would go *insane* if I had to work on a article like this!  I take it there's both a movie, a cult, and what else, books, about this nonsense?  If so, then you should mention all of them at least in passing.  Good luck, and don't let your mind rot.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::Too late. Mind already rotted. But wanted to ask: is there any truth to rumors that your book ''The Burr in the Garden of Eden'' was responsible for launching the [[2012]] hysteria? Please comment.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 17:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::It was probably the group sex scenes in which they are channeling Reichian [[orgone]]s that caused all the problems.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Hayford I would like your permission to upload a picture of the cover of your book ''The Burr in the Garden of Eden'' for an article.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 18:53, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
[[Image:Burr_in_the_Garden_of_Eden.jpg|thumb|right|200px|The German cover of The Burr in the Garden of Eden]]
:::::I suspect that Hayford cannot give that permission. You almost certainly have to go to the publisher. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:05, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::I think that Chris is right, unless we want to try using the "Fair Use" doctrine, applying small scans of book covers.  WP first did it this way, then deleted them all, then restored some of them, along with *long* justifications.  I dunno why we couldn't do it here, but, I think, people have argued about this for years. In any case, I know the publisher, so I'll email him and ask him to grant permission. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Thanx.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 19:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::In the world of science, if i write a review and want to include my own photo, one published in another journal, then I have to get permission from the publisher of the primary journal.  We never own the material that we publish. It may be different in literature, but I doubt it, unless the books are self published, which is becoming more common. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::It's the same in lit. as in sci. It's just that the "fair use" doctrine has been batted back and forth ever since I joined CZ 3 years ago.  If we can justify it under "fair use", then it doesn't matter who owns it  In any case, I have just emailed the publisher. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:30, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Certainly I'm not clear on fair use. To me, if we're not profiting from it and only using it to promote the book, its hard to imagine how anyone could challenge it as not being "fair use". But our worry is not a common sense interpretation but the legal definition. Of that I am ignorant. Possibly your publisher could clarify what they mean and accept as 'fair use'? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::A little qualifier to Chris' above comment on copyright in science: This ''never'' has long been true but a growing number of [[scientific journal]]s practice [[Gold Open Access]], i.e. their content is now [http://www.doaj.org/doaj?func=licensedJournals CC-licensed]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 19:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::I don't think the publishers have a clear idea either.  I know that Stephen Ewen and I used email Time magazine and such like and explain that we were a non-profit, etc. etc.  They would reply, "Yes, we understand, so we'll only charge $1000 per use of our covers."  So screw 'em -- I myself think that "fair use" would let us use these covers. Especially if we throw in enough boilerplate explanation, as WP people are now doing. See, for instance, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Interlop11.jpg with all the boilerplate. I dunno why we couldn't do exactly the same thing. What's the absolute *worst* that could happened if we did?  Well, I suppose that Larry could be thrown into prison for 300 years.  Well, maybe not.... So, I myself, would unleash the unrestricted "fair use" doctrine all over CZ.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
==Those orgones==
[[User talk:Thomas Wright Sulcer/sandbox7|The Burr in the Garden of Eden (book)]] -- is this a good title for the article. I knew those orgones were responsible.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 20:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:No need to put book after it, since there's absolutely no confusion about it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::Is the German cover "family friendly", or can I use it to illustrate [[Pornography]] (soft-core, of course)...giggling at said policy. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::It's *my* sort of family friendly, but I dunno what Charlie Manson would say about it.... As far as *I'm* concerned you can use it anywhere, including an article about [[Orgone]].... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Sibling revelry, perhaps. Hmmm...my mother's library did have some of Reich's orgone books, but I don't know if I even still have them in storage.
::::I am, incidentally, a bit surprised there has been zero comment about [[pornography]]. Yes, I think it's objectively written, but what does it take to do a controversial article around here if you aren't a homeopath? My Israel-Palestine work hasn't gotten any outrage.
::::This is reminding me, all too much, of the comment that even the people who write viruses don't support the Macintosh. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::No pix, I suppose, so no one cares.  Or they're all busy over at the WP article, vandalizing, rewriting, and arguing. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::One of the reasons I wrote it was to test Daniel's theory that an approvable article had to be illustrated, and, further, as a first sensitive topic to test the "ff" policy. As you point out, does anyone care? Should I try a serious article about erotic pain and the different philosophies of "safe, sane and consensual" vs. "risk aware consensual kink"? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Only if you want to put me, and probably everyone else, *really* to sleep. Although I suppose that the next time I wake up at 3 in the morning, as today, and have trouble getting back to sleep, I could come out and look at it for an effective somnifère... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::PS, you might add to the Victoriana section of the porn article that there is truly nothing in the world *duller* than Prince Albert's porn.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::You refer, I assume, to his writing, as opposed to the eponymous body modification?
:::::::::The convergence of pornography and being "up" at night, I suspect, is best left to [[Eric Massa]].
:::::::::I could also write in the Alex Comfort style, or a harder but not necessarily inflammatory style, or go to the deliberately dense Masters & Johnson approach. Nevertheless, this will need to be examined by the new EC. 22:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
== Fair Use ==
Just received this from the publisher of Wildside Press:
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:56:08 -0400
Message-ID: <9221c331003151356y5de3571eid35fceef4d9bba30@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Attention: John Betancourt -- cover permission requested
From: John Betancourt <wildsidepress@gmail.com>
To: tahiti@post.harvard.edu
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163646c9d848887a0481dd1c73
Of course -- you don't need permission, though. I view it as fair use.
Which reminds me -- I've been meaning to drop you a note. I have found a new printer that doesn't charge the $12/book/year fee. If you want me to reissue any of your old Wildside books in print form, let me know. Happy to do so. (And I'll replace Alan's covers with something nice.)
-- John
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:27 PM, <tahiti@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
Hi, John,
Do you know the Citizendium project started by Larry Sanger, one of the co-founders of Wikipedia (although Jimmie Wales doesn't like to be reminded of that)?  It's supposed to be a *better* Wikipedia.  I don't know if it is going to succeed, but I am one of the Main Men there.  There's an article about me there (as well as at Wikipedia):
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Hayford_Peirce
Someone wants to write an article about my novel "The Burr in the Garden of Eden" and would like to upload a scan of the Wildside cover to illustrate the article.  I told him that I'd ask your permission.  Full credit and copyright info, of course, will be given to Wildside.
If you simply email me about this, I will insert your email into the permissions page of the image at some point.
Many thanks, and I'm glad to see that Wildside is apparently doing well these days!
Best,
Hayford Peirce
_________________________________________________________________________
So, as you can see, at least *one* publisher views it as "fair use". [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
==Blockquote vs Quotequote==
Didn't know the preferred format was blockquote, will try to use from now on.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 16:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I really like the colored-quote formats like (I think I saw in [[Biology]] perhaps? You're right the [[Life]] article -- looks great. but won't use).--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 16:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC) --[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 21:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:Well, I think that 99.9% of the quotes in CZ are Blockquotes -- you could ask Howard about it.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:06, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::Tony Sebastian used a lot of colour for quotes in the [[Life]] article.  I seem to remember that was controversial at the time and there was a long debate about it on the forum. The main reasoning for using blockquote was that all quotes will look the same and are controlled by the stylesheet rather than by various templates and/or personalised wikimarkup. The idea is that changes to the style in the future will be consistent and easily implemented across the board. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Sigh.  Yes, I've just taken a look at the Life article.  What to do, what to do? I wish that there were more Constables, or more Editors, or even just ONE functioning Editor-in-Chief.  Or just a plain old Decider.  It's too early to go mix a martini, but I feel like it.  Why do people have to *complicate* things!? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Be.cau.se we are not cl.on.es we are not pro.gram.ed to obey.  Ve are not ro.bot.s or [[Dalek|Da.leks]] Ve are pe.op.le.  Ve have fau.lts and flaws.  Ve have a cho.ice....Ve have a cho.ice....Ve have no cho.ice....Ex.ter.min.ate....Ex.ter.min.ate....Ex.ter.min.ate....  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:54, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Here is the [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2372.0.html old forum discussion]. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:Good grief, I had completely forgotten all that!  Well, the hell with it.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::Without looking at the Forum thread, it's a general Web best practice to be careful with eye candy, lest one get into browser dependencies, color vision, and the like. With an international audience, one also cannot assume broadband connections. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]]
:::Yes, that's what I gathered was the gist of the Forum discussion. Anthony had put a *lot* of effort into making his stuff look pretty.  But I think it all depends on which browser one uses, plus other settings, etc. etc.  Remember the character who was sticking in all the Congressmen and using all the extra equal signs?  This is just another example of that, actually. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::I'll use blockquotes; wouldn't want to be attacked by aliens or orgones or [[darek|dareks]] or have weird sea creatures be attracted by eye candy. When I come across my old <nowiki>{{quote|}}</nowiki> I'll switch them around.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 21:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::Meg, for one, use the quote template.  I'd say not to worry too much at this point. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:08, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::Check out [[Metaphor]] and [[Allostasis and allostatic load]] for the current method I use for blockquotes. Try different browsers and text sizes for viewing. I would redo the blockquotes I put in [[Life]]. [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 04:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Anthony, life is too short for all of that. I think that your efforts in Life look fine -- my only concern, here as in a couple of other issues that we Citizens argue about it, is simply establishing *consistency* throughout the spectrum of articles.  For two reasons: aesthetics in general, and also, I gather from the tech people, that if we don't have *consistency*, a lot of the tech operations simply don't work. I myself am certainly not going to ask you to redo the Life quotes -- someday when we have a thousand WP retentive-types to do this, then we can address these individual cases.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Hayford, you always make sense and force one to think further. I applaud operationally necessary consistency, though not consistency for the sake of consistency or at the expense communicative efficacy and creative innovation.  I hear the little voice shouting from the back pew of my mind, something about about the hobgoblin of small minds.  CZ, no place for small minds, you surely agree. [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 03:04, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::I certainly hear you loud and clear about the hobgoblins, a phrase I've used many times in my lifetime. What I remember, however, is the case, what, six months ago, about the guy who was bringing in *hundreds* of articles he had created at WP about Maryland congressmen over the centuries (he'd been banned from WP). They were, more or less, *excellent* articles, and we *welcomed* here. But he then decided that for the section headings he wanted to use two, three, four, or more = (equal signs) SO THAT IT WOULD LOOK BETTER. Well, maybe it DID look better on HIS monitor, but not necessarily everyone else's.  But the IMPORTANT part of this, which, I myself, as the dumb cop, had absolutely no knowledge of but had to trust the judgment of our more technically oriented people, was that by using these extra = signs, he was screwing up, in major ways, basic operations of our entire "search" system or whatnot.  We tried for a *long* time to explain to him, and to reason with him, but it was useless.  Finally he ended up being banned as a vandal -- I'm sure that you remember the case.  The point here that I'm trying to make, is that *sometimes* consistency, beyond just being a question of aesthetics and personal taste, is an important matter of practicality.  For the latter point, I just have to trust the judgment of people more knowledgeable than I.... Cheers! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::I take your point. Avoid explosives. I'm getting close, though, to a blockquote format I like.  Will try it out on [[Life/Draft]]. [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 03:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::I look forward to seeing it, and, I'm sure, many others do also. I'm certainly not 100% satisfied with our present formatting, so if we could evolve a *better* one, that could then be *consistently* applied, that would be great! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
== To hyphen or not to hyphen ==
Hayford, what do you think is correct: "multiplayer" or "multi-player"? Both? Is it a question of AE or BE? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 14:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:Hyphen, as per Ro. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::When in doubt, I hyphenate. A hyphen rarely hurts, except in the case of hyphenated line-endings. [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 03:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
== My forum account has been deleted? ==
Have you any idea why my forum account has been deleted? [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3103.0.html] I would ask on the forums, but don't want to re-register until I know. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 23:39, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:Hmm, looking on the forums I probably got caught up in the 525 bogus members you deleted in 5 minutes[http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3099.15.html]. I have re-registered under the same name, just awaiting approval... --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 00:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
::Sorry, I thought that you had been registered a long time ago.... I'll approve you immediately. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:03, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
== Thicket strategy ==
Hi Hayford just letting you know what I'm up to. My thinking at present is that a way to boost CZ's web presence is by creating what HB and others call a ''thicket of articles'' -- not just one long one here or there, or a ''hot topic'' article -- rather the idea is to create a few good long articles which are comprehensive and interesting and well-written, and then write lots of little articles on supporting terms. Sometimes these are so-called lemma articles but I prefer just a very short article explaining a term, but loaded with wikilinks to the bigger articles and others. For example, my article [[Aeneid]] is a main one relating to another biggie [[dactylic hexameter]] but surrounded by lots of little articles on related subjects. I'm asking please don't delete the little articles since they serve (hopefully) the function of driving traffic to the bigger ones.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 12:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:You misunderstand my function -- I only delete obvious vandalism and dead-end accounts that are *clearly, clearly, clearly* against CZ policy as explained in various guidelines.  I certainly would never delete *short* articles just because they're short.  Basically, Constables only delete what *other* people ask them to, and even then it's almost *always* because of mistakes in Titles, etc.  If I just went around deleting articles because I felt like it, I would be removed as a Constable. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::::I understand your function, but I wanted to explain to you what I was trying to do, so that in the event that requests came up to delete small articles, that you'd understand the purpose behind my creating lots of little articles. I came across other instances in which articles may have been deleted in the past, possibly because they were small or didn't look significant (I'm not sure why there were deleted) but I wanted to explain that the idea behind creating a slew of smaller articles was to possibly build interest in the bigger ones like [[Aeneid]] or [[dactylic hexameter]] and such. It's a niche strategy -- find specific areas where we can compete with WP, and do a better job, possibly attracting other contributors and editors here. Again, I don't know if this will succeed or not, but I"m trying.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 21:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::On a related subject -- I'm exploring whether to do some kind of experiment regarding subpages and PageRank. I left a message here at [[User talk:Daniel Mietchen|DM's talk page]]. Wondering whether some kind of permission is needed. It would involve creating two competing article thickets on nonsense topics, to see which one did better in PageRank terms.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 12:28, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::I don't have a clue as to what you mean -- Daniel and the other are the people to address.  If they think that it would gum up the works, then don't do it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
::::Sorry if I didn't explain it well. I'm working with Daniel about it. Basically the experiment is harder than I thought, and DM thinks it would require article titles which were real, not nonsense ones; I'm putting this on the back burner for the moment. The idea was to have two competing "article thickets" -- one with subpages; one without -- and see which were easier to find using Google searches after a month being on CZ. I have a hunch that the subpages confuse the crawlers, but am not sure (HB isn't sure). But I was looking for some way to possibly show this, and if so, it would then have to come up with the editorial committee in charge.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 20:43, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
:::::Well, as long as you're experimenting, and others (not me, because I don't understand it) are aware of what you're doing, and you're not creating articles that would being CZ into obvious disrepute, then go ahead. I think that many of us have created test articles, or test something or others over the years.  Eventually they just get deleted -- and forgotten. In some cases, Matt and I have been leery about Daniel and others creating and running Bots until they knew *exactly* how they would work.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
== Wiped out again ==
...in an edit conflict. (& then I went & put this on your user page!) Perhaps that's an argument for not keeping conversations confined to one page. After all, these days it's easy to keep two windows open. Anyway, yes, I find it hard to imagine how anyone could convincingly argue against your K-Trio examples. Did some jolly impartialist come along and quote statistics, as just happened to me: '19-5 isn't exactly conclusive'? And that in response, I notice, to someone else's figure of 9-1. Still only 1000-0 will do, it seems. Any idiots out there, their views must be respected. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
:Hmmm, worse than I thought.  Have you ever thought about devoting yer time to a place called [[Citizendium]]?  It's quite different, I hear! Cheers! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
But, you say, common sense prevailed chez K-Trio! And my ancient ticker is still only 59 - until tomorrow. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(music)]
is the place if you can bear to have a look. I still have hopes of getting the co-ordinator chappie on my side. Yours dreamily, [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
:Good flippin' Geezus! ZZZZZZZz, that noise you hear is me snoring after trying to wade my way through about a quarter of it!  Catch up on your Z's, you're gonna need all yer strength to deal with that! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:55, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
::Is it worth getting worked up about? Normally this article on Wikipedia gets only a sliver of attention -- 6 users per day perhaps. My suggestion is if you're going to joust on wikipedia, prepare to battle. That's what it's all about. If you want quality, spend more time here on CZ.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 23:58, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Just fired another sally. I have plenty of time and patience. I used to teach Arabs and Koreans English. (Granted, that was much easier...) [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Meg has supplied the quotation, so I was able to give CZ a plug. The WPjuns will need all their reserves of bloody-mindedness... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 18:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
:I have the NYT Manual of Style, but it's only 230 pages long and not absolutely complete.  I've looked through it and it doesn't seem to address the question at hand but, pragmatically, we can find a thousand examples in the paper itself to back up our position.  Fowler's Second Edition probably has something relevant, but trying to find anything in that book is a nightmare. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:12, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
== Star Wars and Philosophy ==
Hayford, as science fiction writer and thoughtful person, you might find the essays in this multi-authored book interesting.
:Book Title: Star Wars and Philosophy: More Powerful Than You Can Possibly Imagine. Contributors: Kevin S. Decker - editor, Jason T. Eberl - editor. Publisher: Open Court. Place of Publication: Chicago. Publication Year: 2005.
If you have a Questia account, you can read the full-text: http://www.questia.com/read/116211835  [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 03:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks!  I'll check this out!  [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
== [[Conventional coal-fired power plant]] is due for final Approval tomorrow ==
Hi, Hayford: Just want to alert you that the [[Conventional coal-fired power plant]] is due for Approval tomorrow. Regards, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
== Hi ==
Thanks for the welcome message, Peirce. I'm trying to figure out how things work and made some small contributions. Of course it is very similar to working on Wikipedia, but I find Citizendium very appealing. Regards, (and watch out for these lobsters!) [[User:Jules Grandgagnage|Jules Grandgagnage]] 15:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
== deletion requests ==
Hayford, you should look at the remaining deletion requests, too. I have completed the templates. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 08:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks!  I figured that if I left them long enough someone would get tried of them! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
== Minor minor ==
So you decided for the "crazy" AE system of dates ;-)
As for the endash without spaces:
I know that American typography uses '''emdashes''' without spaces&mdash;like this&mdash;though I regard this as ugly.
But are you sure that "May 1, 2000&ndash;June 2, 2010" is correct typographical praxis?
It looks very irritating! (Because it groups "2000&ndash;June" together.)
--[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:Hi, Peter -- you're gonna hate my answer to all your questions: "Because that's the way Larry decided to do it about two years ago." There were discussions in various places about all these points, and at last he simply said, "Do it this way."  (I do think that in the case of the dates, there was some indication that sorts and searches etc. worked better with his mode.  Can't remember 100%.) As for emdashes, *some* 'Merkins do it that way, others don't.  The New York Times, for example -- with them it is WordSPACEemdashSPACEword.  But ''remarque'', in the CZ date it is an endash, not an emdash.  Same principle, though. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:: Well, I do not mind much -- typography on wikipages is not very good anyway. It was just an observation.
:: On the other hand, I do not think that it is necessary to force uniformity on such minor points (as long as each page is consistent). Style differences between pages can be accepted, just as AE/BE differences. (Controlled) individuality is not all bad. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 20:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
== Can you do this?? ==
Hayford, I replaced the topmost refinery photo in the draft version of the approved [[Petroleum refining processes]] article with a much better photo. Can you do the same replacement of the topmost photo in the approved version without needing to re-approve the article? No content has been changed ... only the photo was changed. Regards, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks, Hayford. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 01:38, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
==PLEASE don't resign as a Constable! We need you!==
Hayford, PLEASE don't resign as a Constable! We need you as a KOP and need you badly!! PLEASE reconsider. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 19:48, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
# Hayford, are you going to make me beg? :) Whether you reconsider or not, you have been a great copper.  You will definitely be missed. That wry wit in combination with the friendly curmudgeon is a perfect balance to defuse the fireworks. :) [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:14, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
# It's ham on wry. Hayford, believe me, I do appreciate your efforts and the seemingly impossible job. I tend to think it will get better if we can move the Charter. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 20:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
# I think it was a good idea to [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3156.0.html suggest] that everyone with special roles should tender resignation once the Charter is in place, but we are not there yet. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:32, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
# Hayford, you should do whatever it is you need to do. However, if you do not reconsider, you will definately be missed! --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 20:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
# Hayford, if you must, you must, but I hope you will consider Daniel's point, which I second. &mdash;[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 20:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
# Every cop needs a vacation (and, of course, deserves it), Hayford. But he should not consume it in times when he is most needed -- in emergencies. Until there will be a Charter, CZ certainly is in an exceptional state. Please extend your office at least until then. (It may well be that '''after''' that date the reasons for your intended resignation will mysteriously have disappeared.) --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 21:23, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
:::As I just posted in the Forums: Well, thanks, everyone, for your kind words!  I've heard privately from Larry and some of the other Constables and I can say that Matt and I are now discussing things.  There are a couple of other private issues to be taken into account also.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
== The Reports of My Departure Have Been Greatly Exaggerated ==
All: once again, thanks for your kind words of support.  As I said above, there are other circumstances that, at least for moment, will remain private, but after *numerous* emails between Matt and myself I have reluctantly decided that I cannot, at this crucial moment in CZ's history, leave him in the lurch.  Nor, perhaps, everyone else, although I am not fully convinced of that. As General de Gaulle (or someone else) once said, "Les cimetières sont pleins d'hommes indispensables." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
:Good for you, Hayford ... and thanks. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 23:28, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks, Hayford. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 23:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Best wishes for you & CZ.  And it ''was'' de Gaulle who said the graveyards are full of indispensable men, may he rest in peace. &mdash;[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 17:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC), in memory of Mark Twain
::::Apparently it's one of those "quotations" for which no real citation can be found, just attribution.  It's also attributed to Clemenceau and others.  But who remembers Clemenceau except *real* geezers?  Even ''le grand Charles'' is now becoming a distant memory: geez, it was *41* years ago that he stepped down! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:38, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
== Protection request ==
Please could you protect [[Template:Greenapprovalbar]] as suggested on it's talk page by Daniel Mietchen and agreed by me. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 23:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
: Thanks Hayford, but could you protect the template instead of the talk page please ;) --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 23:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
::Well, in three or four more efforts I might get it right, hehe.  Okie, I'll protect the template and unprotect the talk page -- does that sound right? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:43, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
::: Hehe, that sounds right to me! --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 23:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
:::: Perfection! Thanks again. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 23:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
== This doesn't look right ==
Hayford, I blocked this account for [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Fioricey49ujk User:Fioricey49ujk].  I didn't look too closely but it looked wrong when I saw it so I blocked it in case it had slipped through.  Wuz up? [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 17:22, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
:Matt, did you have a look at the user page? It is clearly link spam, plus an Editor everywhere! Besides, the one approved right thereafter may deserve a capitalized surname. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 18:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
:::No, I didn't see it till this afternoon!  I have since renamed Sven's last name to upper case. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
::Sorry, there were *three* of them like that, plus one or two yesterday, that came in at the same time. I *thought* that I had *rejected* all of them, but must have clicked the wrong check-box at least once.  (There were also a couple of Approvals that I did at that time, and I must have gotten confused!) Thanks for handling it! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
:::LOL, I caught at work as I was getting ready to leave and didn't notice the viagra advertisement, hahaha. I'm sure it was some kind of Freudian slip :) [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
== Membership requests from spammers  ==
Hayford, as you know, we recently had membership requests from 6 spammers. I rejected 2 of them and you rejected 4 of them. It appears that they all seem to have come from http://www.livescribe.com/forums/ ... does anyone have the authority to track down their IP address and to block it? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 20:30, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
:I had been asking myself the same question.  I just started a topic about this in the Forums at http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3181.0.html [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:47, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
== Approvals ==
No need to apologize for the delay(s), Hayford. They do not matter. I consider our discussions about it as "academic" debates.
(Even without any uncertainty: Why should we expect that Cops work -- without delay -- on "demand"?) --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 21:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks!  Even cops have to take time off to brush their teeth from time to time and ponder unanswerable philosophical questions.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
::Like who should win the French open vs who will win the French open? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Whoever can say "Open sesame!" first in French, I image.  And since [[Roger Federer|Ro-jay Fay-day-raire]] can probably speak it faster and better than even Venus Williams, he'll probably be the one.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
== A missing theory ==
Having [[set theory]] up for Approval, and noting we have [[game theory]], is work needed on [[match theory]]? If so, what is it? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 00:20, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
: That would be the matching theory. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
==Thanks==
Just wanted to say hi and thank you for the speedy approval and welcome message! [[User:Esther Fraser|Esther Fraser]] 03:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:''De rien'', as we Canadiens say!  Glad to see you jumping right in! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:46, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
== About applicant Troy Alexander ==
Hayford, if you look at this website that Troy furnished, http://www.ycusd.k12.ca.us/RVHS/index.asp?whichPage=mainpages/directory.htm, his name appears as a teacher at that high school just as he said he was. Is that not enough to confirm his application? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 04:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:Not necessarily.  I didn't like his email address. We're supposed to verify that the person sending the request actually *has* that account.  I used to be *very* rigorous about this, now I've become less rigorous.  But once in a while I want to see more verification.  And there was something about the tone of the bio.... Anyway, if you're satisfied, go ahead and approve him. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks and done. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 15:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
== About  applicant Johnathan Gray ==
Hayford, I am ready to approve Johnathan's application except for one thing. His email address is given as jonathan.gray@pkfn.org and marked as "Confirmed". However, it is incorrect and it should be jonathan.gray@okfn.org (where okfn stands for Open Knowledge Foundation). If I confirm his application, then his confirmed email will be incorrect ... and I have no way to correct it. Can you use your Sysop privileges to change his confirmed email address to jonathan.gray@okfn.org ?? As matters stand, I was going to confirm him as an author and advise him to provide additional information before I confirmed him as an editor. Sorry to bother you again and I hope you can help me. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 21:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:I'm missing something here, Milton.  His pkfn.org is *NOT* marked as "confirmed".  Have *You* confirmed that it should really be orfn.org by receiving emails from there?  If so, then I will change his address for you. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:44, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
::Yes, I have confirmed his address to be jonathan.gray@okfn.org (*not* orfn.org and *not* pkfn.org ). Thanks for your help. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 22:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:::okfn is correct, for [[Open Knowledge Foundation]]. And I do not think it is good that you discuss these things (see also the other applicant approved today) with full names (albeit spelled incorrectly &mdash; there is only one h, the one after the t) and email addresses here in public. By the way, I have attended his talk at [http://aksw.org/LSWT LSWT 2010]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
::::It's all academic anyway -- I've just discovered that I *can't* change his email address.  I can change his Username and his "position applied for" from "Editor and Author" to "Author" only, but that's all I can do.  I think that he'll have to reapply, this time using his correct email address. In fact, I've just done a little more investigating, and I can't change his email address even after he's joined.  Maybe a smarter Cop, or a smarter Sysop could find some other way of handling, this, but, as far I can tell, he's gonna have to reapply, with the correct email address. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::Okay, Hayford. I was just hoping to save some time if you could change his email address. But since you cannot, I will ask him to re-apply. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 23:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Hayford, I just received an email from Jonathan that CZ's software won't let him re-apply. I have emailed both Dan Nessett and Chris Kay for help in getting his email address changed. If they cannot straighten this out within 24 hours, I am going to approve Jonathan as an author anyhow ... and his email address can get revised later somehow. I have also asked Daniel Meitchen to contact Nessett and Kay as well. Meanwhile, I asked Jonathan to bear with us until we can get this straightened out. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:Just FYI; no-one other than the properly signed in user is able to change an email address.  Make sure *not* to approve an account until you see that it is '''confirmed'''.  This verifies that the user actually owns that email address and will become the default contact email so they can use the "email password" feature (we also have no access to passwords). A user will only be able to create one account every 24 hours with the same email address.  It can take up to 4 hours to get a new account email if the servers are slow. Hope this helps. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 16:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::I wrote Jonathan at the correct email address and he responded. That confirms his address. So does the Open Knowledge Foundation website confirm his name as working there. It was well over 24 hours between his first application and his attempt to re-apply (but our software did not let him re-apply). Are you saying that I can go ahead and confirm his application and then he can change his email address himself afterward? I need a "yes" or "no" answer, Matt. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::I *know* that both Matt and I have *mistakenly* approved candidates whose address were *not* confirmed -- because we were in a hurry and overlooked that fact (their credentials otherwise were fine), but I don't know how things got straightened out later.  Let's say that you confirm him at a (mistaken) xyz.com address and his real address is abc.com.  The confirming email goes to xyz.com, telling him that he's a member and can now log in and generate a new password.  But he *can't* receive that email, because the address *doesn't exist*!  What *I'm* not sure of is whether a new member can log in once he's approved *whether or not he gets a confirmatory email*.  Matt does know, though, I'm sure.  So you'll have to wait for him to answer.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Hayford, I *will* wait for Matt to answer. In the event that Matt says go ahead, I will not only confirm Jonathan at the EPA confirmation page and let the software send his approval notice to the wrong address, but I will send him an email at his correct address as well. Thanks for your comments. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 17:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::This is bugging me enough that I think I'll set up an experiment to apply as a new member with a purposely wrong email address and then see what happens.  And then I'LL WRITE DOWN EXACTLY WHAT THE PROCESS IS and post it into the Constabulary How-To page, with instructions on what to do the next time this happens.  Which it will.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
''Are you saying that I can go ahead and confirm his application and then he can change his email address himself afterward? I need a "yes" or "no" answer, Matt. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)''
:No, he doesn't have his password and has no way of getting it if the system sends it to the wrong email address. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::I just confirmed this myself by setting up a new account with the WRONG email address.  It was then IMPOSSIBLE for me to get the password sent to me.
:::Matt may have a better idea, but here is what I suggest: A.) Have Jonathan wait 24 hours from NOW.  Don't let him do a THING about applying for Citizendium or trying to apply.  THEN have him start all over again, this time using the correct address.  The key: unless he can access the automatically generated password that is sent from CZ, he will NEVER be able to log in.  What has happened *before*, several times, particularly with EZ student applicants, is that they used a SECOND email account address in their application, so that the password actually COULD be found by going to the other address.  In Jonathan's case, this can't happen.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Matt, please don't get offended, but this is becoming ridiculous. Why not let me approve him as an author and let the system send his password to the wrong address? But you then send him the password to his correct address of jonathan.gray@okfn.org along with telling him how to log in and correct his email address. That is much more simple than asking him to re-register. I assume that you can find out what his password is. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 18:35, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::No Milt, nobody can find out what his password is - even with direct database access. The only way to recover a lost password is to get it emailed to the address that is registered to the account. If that email address is unavaliable, then obviously that email will never arrive. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
(Unindent) This what I have just added to the Constabulary page -- Matt, is this enough, do you think?
<blockquote> Most times when a new applicant is unable to log in for the first time after requesting an account it is because the applicant has been approved even though his email address was not '''Confirmed''' on the application.  But generally speaking this is because the applicant has given a '''second''' email address on the application rather than his '''main''' address, which he principally looks at.  Therefore he does not find the automated response from CZ until he looks at his email in the secondary address, to which it has been sent.
<br/><br/>
Occasionally, however, an applicant may mistakenly type his email address incorrectly: He types, for instance, "JohnSmith@yahou.com" instead of "JohnSmith@yahoo.com".  If this happens, and his request is mistakenly approved, he will NEVER be able to log in because the confirmatory email with the CZ log-in password will have been sent to an address that does not exist and that can never be accessed.
<br/><br/>
There is a SINGLE solution: the applicant must be told that he must now wait '''24 hours before making another request for membership.'''  The key here is the '''24 hours'''.  If he tries to apply before the 24 hours are up, he will simply be told that his request cannot be processed.</blockquote> [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Sure, Hayford, that works. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:Okay, I surrender. I will email Jonathon and ask him to wait 24 hours and then re-apply. But our system really needs to be revised somehow so that a simple error by an applicant can be more easily remedied. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 18:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::Just one of about a million things that need to be fixed.  But, in terms of priorities, I would put this pretty far down the list. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::And make sure that he decides whether he is Jonathan or Jonathon or whatever, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Milt, I hope you understand that this is not our doing.  It's the way the wiki software works.  That way no-one knows anyones password.  Just make sure it says "confirmed" before approving and that problem won't occur. You were just unlucky to have approved an "unconfirmed account" with a "bad" email address.  Had he had a good email, it would not have mattered - he still would have gotten the email with the password. Both errors together were catastrophic... kinda like the gulf oil spill! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::: There is one alternative. A SysOp (such as a Constable) can go to [[Special:Createaccount]] and create a second account manually with the correct email address. The previous request can then be declined. There are a few issues with this however. The original user name may be taken, so a variation will need to be used or the old account renamed. The user page and talk pages will have to be created manually complete with categories. Also, a SysOp will have to go to [[Special:UserCredentials]] and fill in the bio/cv/etc. Overall, Hayfords solution may be better. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 19:49, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for the thinking, Chris, but I think that this is *far* too complicated. This is NOT a problem that arises very often. Daniel just sent *another* possible solution to us via the Register account apparatus but I have rejected that also.  I hate to sound grouchy about this. Why can't he just wait 24 hours and then reapply? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::cleaned up comment some. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 20:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Chris, I attempted to create the account manually, but the system recognized that there was already an account request with that name and errored.  I figure that is why Jonathan could not re-apply and have now rejected the account request.  I will try it again now. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 20:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Nope, didn't work. We have to wait the 24 hours. The more we try, we may be causing him to have to wait longer. I think Hayford is right, though I've edited his comment some ;) [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 20:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::: As a more long-term solution, it is possible to increase the number of account requests an IP address can make in a day. By default it is 1 per 24 hours, but this can be increased by editing $wgAccountRequestThrottle in LocalSettings.php. This change would need to be requested by a bug ticket on bugzilla, discussed on the forums and approved by Greg, then implemented by someone with root server access (Most likely Dan Nessett). --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 20:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::: Yes, it was decidedly placed at 24 hours by those that set up the system to prevent multiple account creations from the same IP address, so it's part of the real name and verifiable function.  Any change would need to be thought through thoroughly.. and not on Hayford's page - it makes him edgy :) [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 20:23, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Matt, I *never* "approved" him. I did not even put him "on hold". His application is still pending and in the queue. I found his email address to be incorrect in the course of my due diligence check of his identity. Once I found his application had an incorrect address, I started asking for the help of Hayford and then you and Chris Kay and Dan Nessett ... and that opened up this can of worms. I have now personally emailed him at his correct address, explained the situation and asked him to re-apply after 24 hours. To date, all of my communications with him have been via personal emails to his correct address. The only error that occurred was his providing an incorrect address and I repeat that our software needs to be revised to provide a simpler remedy for cases such as this one. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 20:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Is the fact that his current application is still in the queue going to create a problem when he does re-apply?? 20:28, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:Ah, no wonder he was still in the queue. Yes, that would be why he could not re-apply, but I have since deleted it so he should be able to apply within the 24 hours. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 21:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:: I think that now he has been rejected he should be able to reapply after the 24 hours. I am by no means certain. If he does encounter problems he may need to pick a variation of his name, such as using a middle initial or shortening his first name to John. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 21:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
== [[Gasoline/Draft]] due for re-approval today ==
Hayford, just a reminder. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 18:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
:Tomorrow, I think, if my reading skills are still intact.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:26, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
::You're right ... I goofed. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 19:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
== Green delete box ==
Please see my comments at the (somewhat odd) venue of [[Talk:Doom_(video_game)#templates|the talk page for Doom (video game)]]. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:54, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
== But should it have waited for 2012? ==
Deleting doom has a rather dramatic sound to it...or is this wikievangelistichealing?[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 23:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
== Apologies from Aleta ==
Sorry, but I'm travelling overseas and have had some unexpected happenings.  Haven't been on the 'Net and forgot all about the write a thon for June.
I can't remember my password to the forums, so could you please pass on my apologies?
It's now Wednesday in the US, I think, and I'll be on a plane for the next umpteen hours. You all can feel free to carry on without me.
Ciao
Aleta
== Is reformatting references a copyedit? ==
If you have a moment, your official opinion would be most useful [[Talk:Doom_(video_game)#Reference_formatting_and_additional_nomination|here]]. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
:I've seen that there was a discussion going on about this and I really can't see why we should be concerned about reformatting some references. If you changed the name of a book or something like that it would be a copyedit, but mere reformatting, I don't think so.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
::I agree with you. Thanks Hayford. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 19:41, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
:::I'll drop in to say that style is a content issue, so formatting can be a content edit, but it's not something that I would put much emphasis on when considering it for approval.  If you were editing a games article, I would not care, but if you were editing one of Anthony.Sebastian's [[Life]] references, I'd be a little more cautious that it doesn't change the style. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 21:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
::::I agree in general. Reformatting can be important for style within *text* -- there was an old Nero Wolfe mystery in which he was trying to figure out if some author had plariarized another and he got hold of a lot of works by both of them and read them carefully to see how they dealt with paragraphing, saying, in his Wolfeish manner, that a writer could attempt to change his style but that he would never be able to change his philosophy of paragraphing. The book was called '''Plot It Yourself''', and Archie, the narrator, at this point says in exasperation to the reader, "Paragraph it yourself."  Anyway, as I understand *this* particular issue, it is only concerning reformatting done to *reference* books. I certainly don't think of that as being a concern, unless it was done in such a major way that some other Citizen might complain. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
== Doom (video game) ==
''Technically'' [[Doom (video game)]] is due for approval today (it's 3am here). Practically, this is just a reminder for tomorrow. I hate time zones. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 02:01, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
:I'll do it on the 7th if Matt hasn't already done so -- I thought that there was still some back and forth going on here.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
::Brits: Gold, Sword and Juno Beaches. Yanks: Omaha and Utah Beaches.
::Ah, what you do when you talk about South Vietnam and someone asks if Robert E. Lee was their chief general. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 04:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Whoever went up Pointe du Hoc has got my respect.  RIP [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
::::I haven't been to Normandy, but to fully appreciate the valor, walking battlefields can give amazing insight. As a teenager, I struggled, grabbing at trees for support, carrying nothing but my lunch, at Little Round Top at Gettysburg. That the 20th Maine and 14th Alabama met in bayonet combat and even managed to keep standing is unbelievable. That reminds me that [[Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain]], not just one of the finest soldiers but one of the finest men the United States ever produced, really needs to get finished as an article.
::::At Omaha Beach, remember the 1st and 29th Infantry Divisions in the first wave...and after these years, they'd probably remember, with respect, the German 352nd Infantry Division, a first-line unit that just happened to be having a training exercise there. Remember Hobart's Funnies on the British beaches. Remember [[617 Squadron]] flying utterly precise electronic deception, unglamorous but essential. Think of the [[London Controlling Section]] that convinced Hitler it was merely a diversion and the ''real'' invasion was coming at the Pas de Calais. Don't forget the "Wheezers and Dodgers", the engineers that made the logistic miracles of Mulberries and PLUTO and otherwise creating a port in the middle of nowhere. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 07:23, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Almost there. See [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Doom_%28video_game%29#Toward_Approval this]. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 13:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
== Executive Committee mail - help ==
Hi Hayford
Do you know where I go to fix my mail setup so I receive Executive Committee mail?  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 20:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:Hi, Aleta, I thought it would under My Preferences in the email section at the very bottom of the page but, apparently, it isn't.  Nor can I find it anywhere else.  Oh, wait, is that the Committee or Council that Larry set up to advise him a couple of years ago?  I was on one before I became a Cop. If that's the case, you better try asking some of the other people.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:03, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that's the one - the advisory one.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 23:03, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
:Aleta, try asking Joe, he is on the committee, too. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 00:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
::If it's just the informal advisory one, then no message has been sent on it for at least a year, I would say.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:09, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Oh, since I'm no longer on it, how would *I* know how much it's being used? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
::::Hahahahahahahahaha  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 02:10, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
== Constable authority to withhold approval ==
Hayford, Im looking for anything that gives a constable the right to withhold a properly executed approval process for any reason, including an improperly formed name. I can certainly see arguing for the name change, but that becomes a content issue so once you've made the complaint, you can't approve the article anyway because you become a participant in the article content... a catch 22. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 03:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
:Yes, I know that as a Cop I am now excluded.  But that means that as an Author I can argue this vigorously, and I'm sure going to.  Roger is absolutely, 100% *wrong* about this, and I will go down with the ship on this issue.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
::I sure hope the ship doesn't go down over a name! I'd also hate to lose more good editors or authors over something that can certainly be fixed once the editorial council takes effect.  Keep it civil ;-)  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 16:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
== Can I interest you in a Marcel Bigeard article? ==
One of the actual Centurions -- I mention him briefly in the [[Battle of Dien Bien Phu]] -- has just died; reactions and links to French-language obituaries at [http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2010/06/marcel-bigeard-est-mort.html]. While I can add some material from Bernard Fall, most source material is in French. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 00:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
:I saw that, but haven't yet read the obits. I'll see if I can add anything later on. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
== Heinrich Mueller ==
Why did you delete the redirect? Instead of the Definition? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
:I didn't, I deleted the Lemma article. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
:: Originally, a Definition subpage looks quite similar to the (lemma) main page. This can easily lead to confusion about where you are. (But not if one is a redirect, and the other has a speedydelete template.) In any case, [[Special:Log/delete]] shows that you accidentally deleted the main page with a redirect. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 11:44, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
== [[Cryptanalysis]] ==
I changed the status back to 1.  [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Cryptanalysis#Toward_Approval See this]. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:17, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
:Just saw it.  Geez, I'll get out of the Approval business! What about the moves that I've already made?  And what about the *OTHER* flippin' article set for the 19th? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:21, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
::No problem, see my notes at the bottom of both pages in the Toward Approval sections. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:23, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
:::I've sent out some pings to other Editors. The three-workgroup limit is unfortunate since we could probably get a Computers editor. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 18:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
::::I can see both arguments.  I guess we need to go with the three most pertinent workgroups regardless of whether we have the editors on site to keep the integrity of the approval process in tact.  Otherwise we'd have your name on ALL our articles, haha [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
==Greengrocer's apostrophe needs homeopathic excision==
Yes, in the first paragraph of the approved article, [[homeopathy]]. Presumably you're able to remove it, being a Kop? I came across it by chance, clicking on 'random article'. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
== Incorrect nomination ==
Hi Hayford, noticed you were online. Please take a look at [[Talk:Principle of psychological acceptability]] --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
:Hehe, I beat you to it! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
== Approval process ==
I just updated the approval process slightly, see [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ%3AApproval_Process&diff=100687997&oldid=100682707].
The change is to make sure that the "Update any redirects that point to the original title" box is NOT checked when performing the move from XXX to XXX/Draft. If this is not done then any redirects that pointed to the article will change to point to the draft copy, instead of the new approved copy.
I noticed this when I typed Doom into the search box and was sent to [[Doom (video game)/Draft]] instead of just [[Doom (video game)]]. I have fixed this also: [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Doom&curid=100158611&diff=100687996&oldid=100679008]. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 13:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
==Thanks!==
For all the help signing everyone up, three cheers![[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] 02:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
:There's a guy named Saajan Patel who originally didn't have a Confirmed address,then never reapplied.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:12, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
== Protect Template:Infobox CVG please ==
Hi Hayford, could you protect [[Template:Infobox_CVG]] please? It is used on a couple of approved articles so far (and hopefully more in the future) and should rarely need editing. Cheers --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 19:57, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
: Thanks Hayford. I don't think anyone will object, and the approval process does say [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Approval_process#Approval_and_protection_process_for_templates_used_in_approved_pages here] that "Editors and sysops need to be aware that a protected approved page draws on templates which contain text. Consideration should be given to subjecting key subject-specific templates for banners, boxes and footers to protection and editorial approval in step with major pages." --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 20:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
::You're the expert on this, not me. I don't expect anyone to object, but I thought I'd stick that in just in case.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
== Thanks for the warm welcome! ==
Thanks for the warm welcome! I look forward to reading the welcome package and writing at CZ. Thanks so much for making me feel appreciated.
[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 00:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash
== How am I doing? ==
Here's an article I started writing tonight. I don't like the title, so if you have a better name go for it, and feel free to change it. I guess that's a title request. I tried to do a title request on the page and couldn't figure out the wiki syntax. So far I am having a lot of fun here.
Article: [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/UFO] UFO.
BTW I was born in Arizona and lived about 10 years in Phoenix. I still live in the desert but now I am closer to the mountains. Much cooler here although very windy during fall and spring.
Thanks in advance for your help, [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 04:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash
:Hi, Mary, glad to see you enjoying yourself!  As for the title, I have taken it upon myself to Move the article to the more explicit [[Unidentified flying object]].  I also created four or five Redirects from UFO etc to lead to the new title.
:Not that you're doing it here with the UFO article, but I note that you have a long journalist background.  That, I'm assuming, means you're in the habit of creating articles in the standard newspaper fashion (and Wikipedia, for that matter) of having the main, overall info in the lede paragraph, then working your way down through the story, paragraph by paragraph, each one of decreasing importance, so that the bottom one can always be chopped off. *Some* of our articles here are definitely written that way but, in general, we tend to try to write more "holistic" articles, ones that take a more scholarly and generalized approach to things.  In others, we're writing a New Yorker article rather than an AP story.  At least that's my impression.  In any case, I'm sure that this won't be a problem for you!
:Here in the Sonoran Desert we're having a truly brutal summer.  Hot, no rain at all until two days ago, and now, for the last week, terrible humidity.  So far, the worst of the 17 summers I've been here.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:37, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the tips. It will take a very long time to write this article as there is plenty to write about. I'm sure I'll be fleshing it out, as will others, so it will grow and develop. I love writing in wikis as it is a collaborative effort where we share our creative talents to make everything better.
Yes, monsoon season should be upon where you live. We have our monsoon season which runs about the same time as yours except we get a lot less water. We have less than eight inches of water per year here. It is very dry and the winters are nippy. I wouldn't change a thing as I love the cooler weather.
I'll go back and re-register at the forums using my real name...sigh...I like anonymity as I like my privacy. It's just the way I am.
Have a lovely day!
[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 17:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash (MA)
I forgot to ask:  Is the "inuse" or "underconstruction" tags used here? 17:51, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash
:No.  Are those WP tags? I've forgotten most of the stuff that went on there. We use very few tags (or templates) here, particularly not "citation needed" and things of that nature.  If you think a citation is needed, then bring it up on the Talk page. And, of course, our Talk pages don't have all of the template-generated clutter that one often sees at WP. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
== No plans for the Sandbox ==
No plans for the Sandbox. I may use a text editor and paste the article in. I am getting tired of having to defend everything written. I am slowly getting to the skeptics including my favorite skeptic Phil Klass who I had the pleasure of meeting once. I would like to suggest an "inuse" tag to prevent editing conflicts as I've must have spent an hour re-doing what I've written thanks to people editing over me. BTW did I indent enuff? I'm pooped and I thought CZ would be a relaxed place to write...it's almost as bad as my one article for Wikipedia. Speaking of WP I thought you could use them as a reference as long as you didn't copy and paste verbatim. I'll find other sources...
[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 23:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash
:Hayford, when I created Mary's sandbox and explained to her how she might use it, I did not mean to intimate that the mainspace article should be "off limits" to everyone else. I meant that she could use the sandbox to flesh out and finish her version of the article which she could then present as an alternative to the edited mainspace article. Upon re-reading what I told her about the sandbox, I can see that I probably didn't make that clear enough and I apologize for that. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 00:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
== Apology ==
:::::I'm not sure what I did but I apologize. Finally, you have worn me out in one day. I thought Wikipedia was tough but you guys have them beat. The article is all yours.
I have tried to start working on the skeptical viewpoint but I give up. I'm tired and I have a headache.
And I'm outta here!
[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 23:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash
== UFOs ==
I'll take over as constable on UFOs as you've edited and need to recuse yourself.  Do keep your comments civil! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 11:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
:Matt, also respect Editor rulings on content, such as comments from Milt, and, if not as an editor, my own expertise in the relevant sensors and systems. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 13:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
::I do respect editor rulings when they are made properly (see [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Editor_Policy#Decisionmaking_and_Dispute_Resolution_regarding_Articles the way it is supposed to work]).  Have you seen something to the contrary? I'll be happy to withdraw any of my positions. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 14:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Well, there is <blockquote>. Editors will encounter "problem users" and will certainly want to do something. As editor, while patience is greatly appreciated, you need not go to superhuman lengths to tolerate low quality or bad faith work, or abusive behavior. At the most extreme, you may recommend to the Constabulary that authors be banned. But there are many things that editors can do before going to this length. Just for example, if an author appears open to advice, you might recommend some background reading. Or, without actually getting a constable involved, you might ask an author to take a break for a time to get proper perspective. Finally, you might informally request that an author not edit an article, rather than "make it official" by involving the Constabulary. </blockquote>
:::I began by making suggestions on the talk page, and, rightly or wrongly, made edits and additions to give examples. Milt, subsequently, got to the point of making a formal ruling about not reverting changes in footnotes, and several people were commenting about reverts.
:::From my perspective, Constable arguments about easing off and letting people "be bold" should not have been made on the talk page, which seemed to me to enable problem behavior. An email to the more experienced Citizens involved would have been appropriate.
:::I also believe that Hayford's frustration was informative and, to remove it on grounds of professionalism when nothing had been done about revert wars, was undercutting both formal Editor as well as community guidance. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 15:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
::::I agree with Howard on this. I saw a pattern of misbehavior, to which she was specifically not addressing herself.  Moreover, she appeared to be going out of her way to contradict our advice, which was given in all friendliness.  You say elsewhere that Authors come here to write and "have fun" and that we should let them write their articles.  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  They are here to write articles for the Citizendium Project that are *correct* while ALSO having fun. By "correct" I mean a whole host of things, among which, obviously, are following CZ styles, guidelines, rules, and principles.  If they don't do that, then what's to keep Andy Anyboy in Lumphead, Kansas, coming in and writing a blog about his pet hamster?  Are we supposed to allow him to write 10,000 words about it before we "gently" tell him that the whole thing will have to be deleted?  I also think that you were wrong to delete my comments.  If I weren't a Constable, I'd appeal to the Constabulary about this (no joke). Since you're the senior Assistant Chief Constable, I'll accept your ruling on it, but, once again, I think you should rethink your actions here.  You seem to be saying that *we* have driven a new Author away.  I think that Howard and Milton will back me up when I say that *she* has driven herself away. Please review the literally *thousands* of friendly words that I addressed to her in various places in the course of yesterday -- were those the words of someone trying to drive someone else away?  I think not! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
(undent) Y'know, there's a practical problem here, and indeed in things like Moon Landing Hoax. It would be one thing if we had hot and cold running Editors in all disciplines, but this is not the first time I've found that I couldn't stay as a talk-page-only Editor because the author didn't understand the underlying principles.
You might remember that I gave up, in Moon Landing Hoax, on trying to explain how the assertions made very little sense if one actually knew how [[electro-optical tracking]] worked, on which I wrote a quick article. I didn't go off and write an article on [[reliability of visual impressions]] or [[perceptual psychology]], but did bring in quotes from peer-reviewed sources. The author removed them without discussion, and removed other things I considered reasonable expert writing, calling them "opinion".  Add to this the comments on plans to write about the "skeptical view", and increasingly I got the impression that the author wanted only things supporting of the "ufologist" position.
What do I do when I'm the experienced Citizen, who also happens to be an Editor, with the most background in technical intelligence, sensors, etc.?  Milt is an Engineering Editor, but he's no more going to tell me about the standard procedures in air defense -- extremely relevant here -- than I'm going to tell him about standard operating procedures in a refinery. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
: It is my personal opinion that an Editor making edits to a page should not prevent that Editor from making Editorial decisions regarding that article. In fact, the [[CZ:Editor Policy|Editor Policy]] actually states that "when an editor has made a certain edit, and has specifically requested that some limited portion of text should not be changed (or that it must not be changed in certain limited ways), then authors should respect the request." suggesting that editing an article does not prevent them from making Editorial decisions. The only thing that an Editor cannot do when an article has been edited by them is individually nominate it for approval (and I'm not even 100% convinced that ruling should stay, although it should definately be strictly controlled).
: Similarly I don't think it is necessary for a Constable to recuse himself just because he edited the article. Although he has said he won't, what would happen if Matt now decided to edit the article? Or an issue occured on another article that both Hayford and Matt had edited? Would we then be forced to rely on the inactive Constables? --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 17:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
::Re: the Constables. This is, I think, a tradition has have grown up and I don't know whether it has been spelled out clearly anywhere.  I know that for a year or more now Matt has diligently kept absolutely away from editing any article in which he might *possibly* find himself having to use his Constabulary powers.  Even though he was knowledgeable about some of the articles in question and could have made active contributions.  If we had a dozen active Kops, of course, this would never be a problem.  As it is, Matt and I have to be careful to make sure that one of us is always free. The system, for the moment, is working, and we've never got to a point in which something would have to be, theoretically, appealed to the Chief Constable or the Editorial Board or whatever. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
=====I'll try to respond with my observations=====
It starts with a sweet lady who starts by [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:Hayford_Peirce#Thanks_for_the_warm_welcome.21 thanking Hayford for the warm welcome].  She works [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=100691506&oldid=100691462 6 hours] to to start her article on UFOS.  She goes to bed and wakes to see that her article has [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=100691665&oldid=100691506 really grown]!  Wow, this is what collaboration is.. but wait a minute, she doesn't recognize the article anymore - so much was changed and added.  That's not what she had in mind for her article, so she starts [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=100691681&oldid=100691665 to move things around]. She obviously [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=prev&oldid=100691680 needs help] because she is trying to make a line across the page using <nowiki>===================</nowiki>.  She removes stuff that has nothing to do with UFOS, [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691680 that's about aliens]. She goes to the talk page and she [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk%3AUnidentified_flying_object&diff=100691655&oldid=100691615 sees talk about Fringe and UFO nuts] Meanwhile, Howard is adding stuff to [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691681 counter what she is writing].  She [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691690 moves the history section to a different spot].  Howard claims that she [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691693 deleted stuff and restores it, but it's really just moved].  She [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691693 changes it back].  She dutifully fills in information that Hayford left a note in the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=100691817&oldid=100691803 article], but Howard barks [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691822 We don't use wikipedia as a source].  Milt chimes in with [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=prev&oldid=100691824 please learn how to do this].  Then god forbid, [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=prev&oldid=100691827 she deletes one of Howards skeptic remarks].  She replaces a reference with one from [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=prev&oldid=100691828 wikipedia], but this time Hayford just removes the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691837 whole thing], like Howard says.  Milt [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=next&oldid=100691838 jumps in, too].  She makes her last edit and there is now [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Unidentified_flying_object&diff=100692139&oldid=100691506 nothing left of her original article].
No, once someone edits an article, they become emotionally involved, no matter who you are.  You cannot objectively see the arguments the same.  I don't read the articles, I just watch the talk page and I see how people ar behaving.  That is what a constable should do.  What I saw was a sweet lady, who just needed a little wiki editing help, get blindsided by three of our best in twenty four hours.  And she wasn't even a fringe writer.
Are you saying I should just sit around and watch. I did the job you asked me to do.  If you have a problem with my actions, please take it to a higher level. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
:As you well know, other than perhaps Ruth, there is no higher level at present. Frankly, I am not comfortable in bringing anything to her, because I have no sense of her as a person or contributor because she isn't visible.
:I would disagree with some of your assessments above, especially about the outright removal of material, and her insistence on imposing her definition of UFO and controlling the scope of the article. With hindsight, although I had no way of knowing that she'd be so insistent, the article should quickly have moved to a sandbox until it was open to editing.
:We have different visions of Citizendium, Matt, and there's little point to arguing it here. I suspect that once the Charter is implemented, some people are going to leave. Who will leave will depend on the environment that results and the Darwinian adaptation that takes. I'll note that in the IETF and other groups, there is professionalism, but also there is a saying that there are "full contact design reviews". [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 19:37, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
::Thank you for laying out your point of view so precisely, Matt.  I can see, from your side, without reading the article at all, why you feel about this as you do.  I also agree with Howard on all of the points that he makes. It was, let's say, an unfortunate set of circumstances that led a new Author to begin an article about a touchy subject that also happens to interest a number of the more active Editors and Authors.  As I said somewhere, I think in the section of mine that you deleted, if her first article had been about [[Welk farming in the Firth of Moray in Northern Scotland]] she could have written 10,000 words about it and no one would have even glanced at it, except maybe Milton would probably have spent 20 seconds doing the Metadata for her.  I'm sorry it's worked out like this, but if I wanted to take the time I could go down the list of actions from *my* point of view for every single thing I did and wrote and justify them, at least to *my* satisfaction.  As Howard says above, and I have observed in the couple of years that I've been here, Matt and I have different ideas about CZ articles, what there are, how they should be written, and how they should be edited.  Nothing wrong with that, of course, but occasionally a problem like this is going to arise simply because of he dynamics of the situation. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:21, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
:::Is there cloning of Lawrences in the Firth of Forth, or did you mean whelk? :-) [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 20:27, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
::::Yeah, whelk, whatever the hell they are, clam-like critters, I guess. [[Richard Condon]]'s [[The Ecstasy Business]] is about a Welsh [[whelk]] gatherer who becomes the world's most famous male movie actor and greatest lover.  Improbable, of course, whoever heard of a Welsh actor? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::I'll have to ask one of the local fishermen -- I think they are called something else on [[Cape Cod]]. Does he also gather Welsh rabbits? My knowledge of firths is more associated with fifths. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 20:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
== About [[CZ:Formatting of embedded, inline references]] ==
Glad you like it, Hayford. I hope that others will also like it. Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 04:19, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
== Photo ==
Thanks for the info. I have removed the image in question. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 00:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
:Moi? I haven't said anything about a photo anywhere, have I? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:30, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
==David H Crocker's address is now confirmed==
Just in case you haven't noticed that yet. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 02:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
:I hadn't, no.  Geez, I check the Constabulary email box about a zillion times a day looking for messages from people I'm trying to get in and if I don't see a message there from someone like Mr. Crocker saying, "Oh, yes, I just found the CZ email and I clicked on it and I hope now that every is OK," then I don't check much on the Hold list.  Sometimes I do, and most times I don't. But thanks for the heads-up, and I hope that he becomes a productive Citizen. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
== you've got mail ==
You should have e-mail from me now.  Thanks, Hayford. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 04:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
:Danke, as we diggers say! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
== Photo Gallery Looks Nice ==
Checked out the photos of the Croque Monsieur sandwich. Nice! Did you make the Pullman bread? Did you have problems getting the bread out of the pan? The first couple times I made bread in the Pullman pan the bread top stuck. I now line the top of the pan with parchment paper. Problem solved. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 00:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
:Thanks! No problems.  The first couple of times I used Crisco on the pan.  Then I tried it without Crisco on the third or fourth try because the sides felt a little greasy to me after I'd finished cooking.  My recipe has 6 TB of melted butter in it -- maybe that's enough to keep it from sticking.  Or from sticking very much.  Or maybe my pan has become seasoned, like a cast-iron skillet. It's actually sourdough pullman that I'm making, but I put in yeast to make it rise faster -- I don't want to wait 24 hours for it to rise. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
== Jet Set Willy ==
Hi Hayford, unless I'm getting my dates wrong [[Jet Set Willy]] was due for approval yesterday. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 10:36, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
:I lost track of the dates, what with other baloney going on -- I'll take care of it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
:: And of [[Plane (geometry)]] if that is not too much, please. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 16:31, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
:::Practice makes perfect! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
== Plane approval not complete ==
You made an error in the move which needs fixing. See Peter's talk page. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
== Would appreciate your comments ==
Hayford, I just finished a help article about how to archive user talk pages. It can be seen at [[User:Milton Beychok/Sandbox]]. Before I upload it into Chris Key's new structure for help articles, I would sure appreciate any comments you may have. Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
:I'll take a look in a moment. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
== Something strange with approval of [[Petroleum naphtha]] ==
Hayford, this regards the recent approval of [[Petroleum naphtha]]. Although the Draft version of the approved article has the references intact, somehow the locked Approved article does not have the references. What happened?
Matt did the final approval and I have asked him about this, but he doesn't seem to be online today. Can you fix it, Hayford? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 18:53, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
:Well, I found out what the problem is: ALL of the footnote references in the main text HAVE BEEN STRIPPED AWAY! In other words, there are no longer any <Ref)xxx</Ref) thingees with text inside.  Completely gone.  Très strange! I dunno what to do.  Two suggestions: send Matt a private message.  Or wait for him to return.  And/or post a message in the Help or Technical Forums.  Sorry! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::Just a thought. Since no one has revised the Draft version of  the article since it was approved yesterday, can you just simply Re-approve the Draft version? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 19:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::: Why re-approval? It is a copy-edit (fixing a mistake). Just copy the correct=draft version to the approved page and update. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 19:53, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::::That will probably work -- but lemme think about it for a moment or two. ARE YOU CERTAIN THAT THE DRAFT IS 100% CORRECT? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::Hayford, the History page of the Draft version clearly shows that no one has made any changes since it was approved by Matt yesterday. So, yes, I am sure it is 100% the  same as it was before it was approved. So if you simply copied the entire Draft article as suggested by Peter, that should work. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 20:15, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::: I have compared the Draft with the Approved version before making the remark. You can easily check yourself now: [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Petroleum_naphtha&diff=100698438&oldid=100698023 diff]. It is precisely the references that were missing. This must have happened when Matt copied the text and transferred it to the new page. He must have used some tool that automatically removed everything between ref-tags. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 20:46, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::::::: That's why I'm thinking it was WikiEd that I added when Anthony.Sebastion asked on the forum.  This is the first approval since I added that feature.  It makes the references look different in the edit window.  I wonder if when I copied to paste it left off the references.  I also switched to Safari as my browser at the same time because WikiEd soens't work on my IE8.0.  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 21:40, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, I was just talking to my computer guru friend about this strange occurrence (and other problems with browsers) and he said, "Every browser is like an interpreter -- it reads new text line by line and interprets what to do with it.  So if one browser sees some text with two curly {s in it ahead of a SPACE, it does one thing, but MAYBE another browser, which is being rewritten by some gear-heads somewhere, looks at the SAME thing and decides that it doesn't like that SPACE and simply gets rid of it."  I think that this must be what happened when you did the Copy and Paste of the text -- the browser decided that it didn't like those <Ref) things for some reason and just decided to ignore them entirely.  Make sense? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) I'm just happy that it got straightened out. Thanks all, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 22:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)\
== References for your review as you seemed to have missed them ==
I posted the original article I submitted on the discussion page. The top two '''independent''' references reference your vision of the "fantasy" as you called it. One source is in English from a German American web site while the other is from a German web site. I used Google translate to German to English. Both independent references back up the "fantasy" as you call it. On the exlinks page I also included numerous '''independent''' references all stating the same thing. By-the-way the term Kaiser is German for Emperor. So indeed the term Kaiser would be used by a
German writer in reference to a Byzantine emperor. Get your facts straight before accusing me of poor research. I suspect I've done far more than a lot of other contributors here. I posted this message here, so you could read it as you just might miss it on the discussion page, much like you missed by independent references.  And as I posted on the discussion page I have contacted a constable for assistance. I'm not sure what I did to cause you such antagonistic (or in simpler terms hostile) behavior towards me. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 21:39, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
:Not relying on Google translators, I observe what Goetz von Berlichengen said to the Bishop of Bamberg.
:Mary, as far as accusations of antagonism: Pot. Kettle. Black. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
== Gruyere ==
Hayford, the redirects are not needed because searching for Gruyere or Gruyère both find both Gruyere and Gruyère.
Moreover, Gruyere needs disambiguation, and the proper title for the cheese is [[Gruyère (cheese)]]. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 17:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
:Peter, redirects are not for you and me, they are for my American girlfriend, say, who comes to CZ and simply types "gruyere" into the search box. Or maybe she types "grouyere".  We CANNOT have too many redirects, in fact they are *vital*!
::While I can't precisely list the variants, it appears the search engine will find versions with diacritics if given an argument without them, but the wikilinking mechanisms is much more precise about diacritics, capitalization, and punctuation.  I have an article on the [[Warfighter Information Network-Tactical]] that constantly failed linking until I did copy-and-paste from the article; my suspicion is what I thought was a hyphen might have been an emdash or endash.
::In other words, don't assume a redirect or wikilink works unless it's tested. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 17:47, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
::: From what I have seen, the search engine will find a diacriticed version of a word when given the plain version but will not go directly to it. It treats it as a spelling mistake. Also, as Howard pointed out, interwiki linking must be exact. Therefore the redirect is essential. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 17:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
::::Oh.  Well.  I myself am not all concerned with the larger issues of Internet searching -- I am concerned solely with having enough CZ redirects so that anyone coming here and looking for something is certain to find it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:58, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
:::::No, Hayford -- I'm referring to the behavior of CZ's own search engine. It's more tolerant than wikilinks -- indeed, it delivers far too many false positives. ''sigh'' Google can be put there, but I'd much rather have a search tool that provides more expert tools such as proximity search (e.g., "phrase A" if and only in the same sentence/paragraph as "phrase B") and  [[regular expression]]s. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 18:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent: edit conflict)
"grouyere" would be a spelling mistake. Do you really suggest that we should try to redirect all possible incorrect spellings?
:: But my remark was meant for redirects because of an accented letter (è). These are not needed -- or so I thought because of [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3311.msg31518.html#msg31518 this] forum post -- because the search engine includes this possibility automatically. However, after checking the post again, it may only say that it would be possible to have this convenient behaviour. Then, for the time being, such redirects are indeed needed. (Testing is no longer possible because the redirects are all in place.)
Finally, I wanted to point out that the redirects should point to [[gruyere (disambiguation)]] and the cheese should have the title [[gruyère (cheese)]]
Chris, I do not think that redirects should be given solely for wikilinking purposes. Wikilinks should point directly to the target page.
:I'm not suggesting that we need redirects for *all* possible spelling mistakes, certainly not variations on gruyere -- it's necessary for *some* commonly misspelled names or words, however.  Maybe they should go to a disamb. as you say, but I never like setting those things up.  What would there be at a disambig for Gruyere?  A province, a cheese, a district? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
:: Yes, the search does bring up the diacritic version - however it does not automatically go to it. That is what I meant by that forum post. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
== If you read this, I would appreciate your help ==
Hayford, just in case you still look at this page occasionally, I have just written a new article and the title will be [[Smog]] when I upload it into the article namespace. It is currently in my sandbox at [[User:Milton Beychok/Sandbox]].
I know that you are probably not an expert on the subject. However, I would very much appreciate your review of it and giving me any comments, additions, deletions, typo corrections,  or revisions you care to offer on my sandbox talk page. I am fairly sure that there must be some parts which could be better written from the viewpoint of clarity and understanding.
Thanks in advance, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 02:08, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
== On your election-complications hypothetical ==
So René Descartes walks into a bar and orders a glass of Bordeaux. When he has finished it, the bartender asks him, "Would you like another glass?" Descartes replies, "Oh, I think not," and poof! he disappears. [[User:Bruce M. Tindall|Bruce M. Tindall]] 20:41, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
:I was born in Newark, New Jersey. There is controversy if he had Newark in mind when he wrote "that which does not destroy makes me the stronger", or if the special case of "that which does not destroy me makes me the stranger."  Strangeness has multiple special cases, though, primarily found in California. One cannot forget the boast of the Japanese who said "Japan has the best-organized anarchies in the world!: [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:12, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
== One argument for cold storage ==
The turkey might spoil.
Actually, we might want to have a top-level article on turkey recipes. I frequently substitute turkey cutlets for veal. Turkey mole is a Mexican classic. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
== Turkey recipes ==
Thanks for your message. First, as you see on the turkey-recipe talk page, I wanted to make sure I understood the nuclear option that was being proposed.  I assume Milton means "nuke the ''recipes'' page with extreme prejudice," but he ''said'' nuke the "article."  When I see the answer I will say more, if you like. [[User:Bruce M. Tindall|Bruce M. Tindall]] 22:47, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
:There are varying levels of turkey nuking. When the turkey is in the fireball, recipes are moot. Now, appropriate levels of radiation can sterilize turkey, but you really don't want radioactive turkeys. If Spiderman came from the bite of a radioactive spider, what would a hostile radioactive turkey produce? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:58, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
::Hi, Bruce: Just for the record, I did not use the words "nuke" or "extreme prejudice". As for what I meant, I think that all of the "Roast turkey" cluster (that includes the article and all of its subpages) should be deleted. Now that the original author has been permanently blocked and peace will hopefully reign again in Citizendium, I think the cluster that created so much controversy and took up so much time of so many people should also be banished ... based on the reasons given in [[:CZ:Article Deletion Policy]]. I hope that makes clear my opinion. I now intend not to spend one more minute on discussing the cluster and its subpages, so if there are any responses to my opinion, please excuse me for not continuing to respond.
::Also for the record, my above comments were made on my talk page where Hayford asked me what I thought, and it was Hayford who copied my Talk page comment and placed it <s>here on this page</s> in [[Talk:Roast turkey]]. I am not complaining about his having done so, I just want to set the record straight. Best regards, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 23:08, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
== Exeunt ==
Mary's been kicked out and Bruce has left. Could there be a connection? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:Mary's only been blocked for 24 hours.  As for Bruce, I'm completely baffled.  I'm about to email him to ask him why -- as far as I know, there is absolutely no connection.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
'Expiry time of infinite' - is that Kopspeak for 24 hours? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 02:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:As I recall, the form we use doesn't have a 24-hour provision in its boilerplate.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 02:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for the explanation. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 02:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:Since when did the Constabulary start using shorter blocks? [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 03:14, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::My recollection, as a Kop, AND of the CZ rules, is that there were NO short bans -- you were banned forever or not at all. But, of course, the Officers on Duty can pretty much do as they like as long as no Higher Authority overrules them. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:14, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:::A string of unladylike words has just passed my lips [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 05:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Sorry, I was referring to Bruce's leaving.  And to the situation that has led to it.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 16:19, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::::Well, pragmatically, isn't that the way it's working right now? There's NO other authority. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 05:14, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:::::That was also the situation when I was (briefly) a constable. I toyed with a proposal to allow 24-hour blocks that would have to be upgraded to infinite by another constable except in case of obvious vandalism or inappropriate material, but the feeling from others was that it had to be all-or-nothing - a slap on the wrist was out. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 09:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
(undent) Please bring this up to the new Management Council, too, whether you agree or not, it needs to be discussed and decided. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 15:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:Always looking to the wisdom of Monty Python, perhaps not wrist-slapping, but fish-slapping. Consider obtaining an animation of a fish, or wielder of fish, on the offensive. As long as one is signed in while blocked, the screen converts to a fish on collision course. As an alterative, there is a US deodorant called BAN. I wonder if the manufacturer would give permission to use a commercial? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 15:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::You mean the lack of flexibility in the present "rules"? And the possibility of making explicit various degrees of blocking and banning?  If so, sure. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Yes, Hayford, that is what I mean. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::::Righto.  I useta wonder about it myself, but knew that it had been handed down by the Founding Fathers, to be a clear contrast from WP and its incessant 24-hour bannings.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:18, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
:::::The actual current rule here is to block indefinitely and the user can appeal, which I think is good, but the appeal process is broken. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 18:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
::::::Yes, to *my* knowledge, the only people who were banned and then appealed were Martin Cohen and the Muslim who did the Mohammed article. That kid in Arizona *said* he was going to appeal but never did, I think.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

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