Talk:Quakers

Other reform

Prison reform is another major area of historical Quaker activism. Lesser areas include hospital reforms and assylums.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 12:09, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

"...it is of interest to note that four physicians of Quaker background (Drs. Elias Cooper, Levi Lane, and Henry Gibbons Senior and Junior) at different periods during the half century from 1858 to 1908 played key roles in founding the first medical school on the Pacific Coast and in assuring its survival. Their success in creating and preserving the institution, under the difficult circumstances of the times, can best be attributed to the shared idealism of their common religious heritage."[1]

 —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 12:41, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

I think a section, outside of just a mention in the introduction, on their civic reforms would be a valuable contribution to this article. --Todd Coles 13:49, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Misc.

Apparently there has been scholarly work done on Quaker Aesthetics. That's a very interesting twist.

• http://www.flickr.com/photos/dkastner/317569444/ - Quaker meeting house erected in 1761.
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshhough/320546627/ - Quaker meeting house in Ramallah, Palestine
  • http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshhough/320546972/ It's interior
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/1198664169/ - The Great Friends Meeting House, built in 1699

 —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 22:06, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

There are a lot of good Meeting House pictures here too - http://www.flickr.com/photos/qmh/

Some of these would fill out the article nicely - I especially like the Palestinian one, perhaps up near the Current Status section that talks about the internationality of Quakers. I also think it would be good to find an example of the simple Quaker dress. --Todd Coles 19:00, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Here's two more to consider.

• http://www.flickr.com/photos/gmmotorcyclist/371289262/ - Quaker peace march
• http://www.flickr.com/photos/hilaryb/39700731/ - Quaker meeting

--Todd Coles 19:11, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

visibility

good pictures of Penn and Fox; I lightened the heavy contrast. Richard Jensen 19:59, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Non-theist Quakers, et cetera

I've added a small paragraph to the section on Quaker beliefs to the effect that some Quakers in the more liberal traditions do not regard ourselves as Christian. I'll add some more stuff on Quakerism as it exists in Britain and the Commonwealth at some point. Josy Shewell Brockway 21:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm also somewhat dubious as to whether Richard Nixon should be listed as a famous Quaker. He was raised in the conservative (programmed) Quaker tradition, true enough, but I don't believe he practised in adulthood, particularly not while he occupied the White House. I'm open to correction on this, however.Josy Shewell Brockway 21:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Approval?

This seems like an ideal candidate for approval. It's pretty well developed and has been Archive:New Draft of the Week. Any editors in CZ:Religion Workgroup want to check it out and push it towards approval? –Tom Morris 20:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Marriage

Quakers weren't allowed to marry out till the 1840s (at least in England). This should probably be mentioned somewhere, but I'm not sure where. Peter Jackson 10:11, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that the article as it stands at the moment is really quite general. Once you get into the sort of statement mentioned, you are faced with the question of what is meant by "not allowed to marry out". Certainly marrying out was frowned upon until 1859, but whether a Quaker who did so would actually be disowned depended on the (variable) practice of his/her own particular Monthly Meeting. This sort of detailed discussion would be out of keeping with the present level of generality. --Martin Wyatt 21:54, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Early history

I have made several changes to the two sections on early history. Some of these are mere tidying up, others are more substantial. I think the most contentious might be my removal of the statement that the early Quakers denied the doctrine of the Trinity. Barclay's Apology, which is the nearest thing to a systematic statement of early Quaker views, implicitly affirms the Trinity (Proposition II). I have replaced it with some other instances of contentious Quaker assertions. There is still a lot to do on this section, but it could easily grow to the point where it unbalances the rest of the article. --Martin Wyatt 20:30, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Too long?

In making some minor changes to this article, I noticed an automated warning that it may be too long. As I have made some progress with a new article on Early Quaker History (to 1658), would anyone object if I summarised those parts of this article covered more fully by that one, and made some rearrangements? --Martin Wyatt 21:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

I have given it three weeks, and now made the changes proposed. I notice that the article is now written in a mix of American and British English. Apart from that, it is still fairly disorganised, and I may work further on it. --Martin Wyatt 19:35, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Toleration Act

Not sure the statement in the article is right. Peter Jackson 10:26, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I would not have written much of the article in the way it now is, but I think it is generally accepted that the 1689 Act was a key event. Besse, who collected the Sufferings of Quakers, ended his collection at that point. There were still considerable disadvantages for Quakers. Tithes was one area. Another was that, given the uneven local interpretation of laws according to local prejudices, the laws against vagabondage could still be used against travelling ministers, though this happened seldom. It took a while for Quaker marriages to be recognised. The tithes/church rates problem continued for a long time. J C Atkinson Forty years in a moorland parish wrote in 1891 that [the Quakers in the parish] "never paid a penny of the 'cess' they were liable for. But somehow or other, when the churchwardens went their collecting rounds, a sheaf or two of corn, of an approximate value to the sum set down against their names, stood handy to the churchwardens' hands, and no inquiry was ever made as to the person who had "conveyed" the Quakers' corn."

Ah, yes, I see on further investigation that section VI, which appears to exclude Quakers, applies only to clergy. And Quakers don't have clergy, do they?

I'm going to expand the context a bit, anyway. Peter Jackson 14:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Business

I read somewhere that they were responsible for introducing honest pricing, in place of the tradition of haggling. Peter Jackson 09:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

That is certainly what is said, the rationale being that one should speak the truth at all times (without having to swear to it) and therefore if one offers something at a price, that is the price. Fox wrote in his journal that outsiders "knew and saw that . . . they would not cozen and cheat them, and at last that they might send any child and be as well used as themselves, at any of their shops." He attributed their growing prosperity to this. In 1700 an anti-Quaker writer attributed that prosperity more to diligence, thrift and trading with each other (cited Braithwaite, The Second Period of Quakerism). --Martin Wyatt 14:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed reorganisation

I am proposing to remove the sections from "Migration to America" up to, but not including "Public perception of Quakers" and place them in a new article on "History of Quakers in North America". The rationale for doing this would be that it will then be possible to indicate clearly where there is a follow-on from the existing article on Early Quaker History. At the moment, the article on History of Quakers in Britain and Ireland follows on, and this can be shown at the bottom of the Early Quaker History page; but for the American history, there is no satisfactory way to deal with it, because there is no equivalent article. Any objections? --Martin Wyatt 19:44, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

That change has now been made. Due to the patchwork nature of the articles, some further changes ought to be made both to the new article on History of Quakers in the Americas and to this article. --Martin Wyatt 20:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I have now completed all the reorganisation I am likely to do. Most of the material removed from this article has been reused elsewhere. --Martin Wyatt 19:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

adjusting opening sentence

Hi there, I just removed "small, radical" from the first sentence. Since I personally know a lot of Quakers, I'm unsure that "radical" applies. They certainly are different--without a written creed, mostly pacifist, fiercely independent, yes. Radical is a tricky designation; it can be positive (i.e., because something makes a major needed change) or negative (because something takes a step in an undesirable, iconoclastic direction). I hope we can find a better word. For now, I'd probably call them "utterly unique" as compared with all other Christian factions. I'm also not sure about "small". Here in NJ, they are as common as oak trees. Anyway, when I get time, I'll have a more in depth look at the entire article, but I would suggest starting out with an objective tone and thus avoiding "radical, small" as shortcuts. I'm looking forwards to spending more time with this article when I get a chance.Pat Palmer (talk) 17:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

on silence at meetings

I haven't read the reference given claiming that "most" meetings are now programmed instead of free form. But the 3 meetings in NJ which I have personally attended did have at least a significant portion of the service unprogrammed. Usually, the church leader will say a few introductory statements, then sit down. And then time goes by; people may speak or not. Even at weddings. Thus, I sort of reworded that section; hope that's okay.Pat Palmer (talk) 17:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

how many Quakers today?

This article references 100,000; Wikipedia's article says 375,000 "adult Quakers" and provides a reference. So this matter deserves some attention and possible updating. I personally had never met a Quaker when I grew up in Tennessee, but after moving to NJ in the 1980's, I have always come across quite a few Quakers. And working in Philadelphia for decades, I also met plenty of Quakers. So to people writing from some parts of the country, Quakerism may seem to be a minority thing, but almost anywhere in the Northeast US, it is common and has threads to all aspects of society and culture. I don't have references for this, yet, but will try to find them.Pat Palmer (talk) 18:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC)