Talk:Intelligent design

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Intelligent design

Current talk page

Archive 1, Archive 2

Editorial notes

The following are notes by editors to contributors to this article.

• The Biology Workgroup is among the groups assigned to manage this article, not because any biologists advocate ID, but because biologists are the relevant experts in responding to ID from a scientific perspective.

• It is crucial that everyone reading and working on this article review two policies: Neutrality Policy and Professionalism.

First section in trouble now methinks

I hate to sound like wet blanket, but I thought the first section was headed in the right direction but it's taken a direction that I can't support. Non-scientists will not understand the charge that Intelligent Design is "untestable" or that ID doesn't make predictions. By gutting their argument so thoroughly in the first few lines, those who may most need an education will never read the article. They'll simply be convinced that you are part of the ID suppression conspiracy.

My experience is not with writing real encyclopedias or scientific journals. My experience is with writing business documents and entertainment pieces. In addition I am an ID sympathizer, so I have a very different perspective from the scientists (whom I greatly respect) that are donating their time for our education.

I still favor the idea of broadly describing the real core of the debate in such a way as to leave a measure of respect for those who might want to believe the claims of ID, but also to disarm them so as to let them consider the possibility that all their beliefs might not be founded in facts. I don't want to revert, but I can't see a way to edit the opening without a pretty marked change. I don't want to make that change if I am a minority of one. This opening is not modelled after a scientific or encyclopedic article, but I think it has a much greater chance of getting someone to read the article:

Intelligent design (ID) is the usual designation for a claim that certain features of the universe and living things are best explained by an intelligent cause. Proponents of ID generally evidence this claim by pointing to those parts of the natural world which are not yet fully understood by science.

Opponents, who are in the majority in the scientific community, interpret the same evidence as nothing more than a lack of evidence, meaning the universe appears to be infinitely large, but scope of human knowledge is finite. Thus, science will always paint an incomplete picture of the natural world. Any idea who foundational claims and assumptions are founded upon lack of evidence, cannot be disproven, but cannot be accepted as science in the traditional sense of the word.

In this article, we will describe some of the claims made by Intelligent Design proponents. Then, we will examine some of the mainstream scientific responses to the claims made my ID proponents, so that the reader may make up his own mind about Intelligent Design.

I know that last sentence is a little dramatic, but there is a method to this madness. I'm probably losing my last shred of credibility when I return to bigfoot again, but when National Geograpic does a special on bigfoot they don't destroy the bigfoot myth in the opening segment. They don't do that because if they did no one would watch the program. But, National Geographic doesn't lose a bit of credibility because after setting up all the evident for bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster, they reveal why the claims don't appear to stand up to scrutiny. But they often wrap up the program by saying something to the effect of, while these claims didn't pan out, proponents are still out there searching for definitive evidence for the elusive bigfoot.

Instead of using a scientific journal or the typical encyclopedic article as a template, is it possible to templatize from the formula that National Geographic has developed to present pseudo-scientific claims? Will Nesbitt 06:22, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree with your core reservation. leads are always contentious on articles like this and perhaps less is best, at least for now, so I've moved the second paragraph in to the lead of the criticism section. Can we leave the lead for now and see how the article shapes up? I've always felt that Introductions are best written last.Gareth Leng 07:13, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

I think that's a fair request and a good strategy. BTW, I really like what you have most recently introduced to the article. Will Nesbitt 07:58, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

The teleological argument

The Distinct from creationism section brings up "the teleological argument." That's not something we can presume an average reader will be familiar with. I think we need a brief explanation or at least a wikilink to an (existing) article on the topic. Is there someone who feels qualified to do that? --Eric Winesett 12:20, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

?MSH?

"much like melanocyte stimulating hormone (MSH), which acts as an antioxidant in organisms that don't produce melanin."

I didn't know this, and can't find a reference....?Gareth Leng 08:10, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

The Proponents of ID

Doesn't this entire section fit more in with the Intelligent Design Movement? Will Nesbitt 08:36, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

I wondered, but as we are citing these to explain the claims I thought that Nancy's point was a good one - we need to identify exactly who we are citing. This does avoid repeated circumlocutions like "a prominent proponent of intelligent design" as preambles to quotes. I would say that the ID movement article needs to explain the broad movement and the wedge tactic, here we only need the prominent theorists of IDGareth Leng 08:53, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Agree, but perhaps a reference line to ID Movement? Will Nesbitt 11:01, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Who?

Who is exactly the architect of the intelligent design theory? Is it William Dembski as the article implies? This is important because the background of that person is a factor in the debate whether it's a scientific or religious theory. Yi Zhe Wu 10:30, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree that it is important, because any encyclopedic article on a topic would include that information. Gregor Mendel was a monk, but his ideas were science. I don't know of a famous example,offhand, but if a scientist came up with a religious essay or interpretation, that would not change it from religion and make it science. Nancy Sculerati 17:09, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Current start

Intelligent design (ID) is an attempt to rebut the naturalism of the theory of evolution through natural selection. It is an argument that random processes such as mutation could never combine to create the extremely complex species of life found in fossils and on earth today.

ID supporters argue that certain fundamental features of the universe and living things are best explained by purposeful causation—a "higher intelligence."

What on earth does the abstract first phrase mean? What exactly is naturalism - and why can't its meaning be displayed here? Shouldn't there be an attempt to relate ID to phenomena in the real world to which it applied. Or are we actually talking about objection to evolutionary theory? Why no attempt to relate the concept to actual events in the natural world until late in the article?David Tribe 19:37, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

I think the current start is argumentative, misleading and well ... in my opinion undesirable to the point of being offensive and outrageous. Several editors have worked with this version, so I'll resist my urge to edit this back to the point where this line of thinking started.

The current opening is the characterization of ID which is held by members of the Intelligent Design Movement, but it is NOT intelligent design ... theory, if you will. This is evidenced by the fact that Thomas Aquinas et al. made no attempt to rebut evolution. Intelligent design is not an attempt to rebut anything. ID is an idea about the origins of the universe. This idea is employed by members of the ID movement to both rebut evolution, but also to push a specific agenda. The idea itself does not attempt to rebut anything. The idea makes certain irrefutable, but unprovable claims about the origins of the universe.

Please edit this opening to reflect the idea, and not the aspirations of the ID Movement. Will Nesbitt 07:23, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I didn't listen my own advice and I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes. I returned to an opening which I don't find offensive or outrageous. Then I moved the rebuttal characterization to the Intelligent Design Movement page where it seems both relevant and appropriate, rather than offensive and argumentative.

BTW, I do not support charactizing ID as a "doctrine" as Larry suggested. A doctrine is accepted on faith and without reason. I submit that ID sympathizers (as opposed to ID proponents) find the word "doctrine" as offensive to us as the word "theory" is to some of our resident scientists. Will Nesbitt 07:46, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Will, I support your recent edits. If you hadn't done it, I would have. You are absolutely correct that the edits had made the article take a decided anti-ID stance. Well, this article will not have an anti-ID stance. It will be neutral.

As to "doctrine," I'm not so sure. The doctrines of the Catholic Church, for example, are supported by arguments. Are you saying that you are an ID sympathizer and that you find "doctrine" to be offensive? If so, that's a reason to hunt for a better word. If not, then you're just speculating, right? --Larry Sanger 11:15, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Larry, I'm not an ID proponent, but I am an ID sympathizer. This is because at my core and for reasons not germaine to this discussion, I have concluded that the universe is intelligently designed. However, I do not support psuedo-science. Also, I do not ascribe to the general looniness I see within the ID Movement. For them, ID is in fact a doctrine, or belief, which does not need support. Furthermore, they reject any evidence which does not seem to support their understanding of ID. I do not identify with, nor do I agree with this "faction".

I find the word "doctrine" offensive (as an ID sympathizer) because it rules out the possibility that there is a natural (not supernatural) causation which can be described as intelligent design. ID in my humble opinion is neither a theory nor a doctrine. It is a collection of unprovable claims which can not be fully dismissed. If there is a word for that, I don't know what it is.

Mine is a very difficult position, because I agree with (and understand) nearly everything the scientists and ID scoffers have said herein. By the same token, I understand exactly why the ID crowd revolts against the scientists. The peasant rabble doesn't fully understand the scientific argument against ID nor will they stand idly by when they think that the scientific argument is assaulting their value system. (A few scientists are mirror a secular evanglism in this regard.)

I think it's not productive to put scientific theory and religious doctrine in opposition. Others who have attempted to draft a coherent article on this subject continually walk back into that circular trap and then the arguments start again. Change the first paragraph. Change it back. Resummarize. Restate the scientific position. Outcry of unfairness. It's like some kind of sick dance macabre that endlessly repeats.

That's why I keep suggesting a different template for this article. We should follow the form that respected publishers and producers have taken when discussing UFO's, bigfoot and the Bermuda Triangle. They never say bigfoot doesn't exist. They always present some hoaky evidence. Then they debunk the evidence. Then in the final segment they summarize their position by stating that noone has found any credible evidence to support bigfoot's existance, but they'll keep looking because bigfoot might be out there. Most people find that form of education more informative and entertaining than a scientific journal that says in the first line, "Bigfoot is not real." Will Nesbitt 15:24, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Proponents vs. Thinkers

My rationale behind "proponent" vs. "thinker" is that proponent seems to imply membership in the ID Movement. A couple of alternatives which I rejected are "philosopher" and "theorist". I also think it's worth making the distinction that our current section identifies a few modern ID theorists, but ignores many historical ID philosophers. Will Nesbitt 07:30, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Will, unless I am much mistaken, it is simply incorrect to say that there are many "historical ID philosophers." The philosophers you're thinking of argued for the existence of God by saying that the universe displays signs of intelligent design. By merely making this argument, surely they were not therefore wrapping it in the mantle of science, as ID proponents do. Does that make sense? --Larry Sanger 10:53, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Will, you wrote "ID does NOT attempt to rebut evolution, that is an aim of some members of the ID Movement" in your last edit summary. The article actually said "rebut the naturalism" of evolution. Regardless, in this case those "some members" include Michael Behe and William Dembski -- both of the "thinkers" given space in this article. Dembski's No Free Lunch "critiques Darwinian and other naturalistic accounts of evolution."[1] Behe wrote Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution and had this to say in an interview: "I think the actual evidence of biochemistry leads powerfully away from the mechanistic-materialistic science of Darwinism to some kind of new formulation of biological science in terms of plan, purpose, and intelligence."[2] Are there examples of ID "thinkers" who don't use it against evolution? -- Eric Winesett 11:18, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Fair play, Eric. I'm interested in the answer too. --Larry Sanger 11:20, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I suppose the honus is on me to research some other modern "thinkers" who sympathize with ID but use ID to or think that ID does rebut evolution. I'm not aware that these two thinkers own this idea. If the very idea of Intelligent Design (capitals intentional because there is only one ID) is owned by these two men, then I not only stand corrected, but furthermore, count me among the number who disagree with ID's core principals. Will Nesbitt 15:06, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

BTW, I think the "historical" ID thinkers were neither scientists nor philosophers because before the Age of Enlightenment there wasn't much of a distinction between science, philosophy and religion. These fields were closely related (because the scope of human knowledge was much smaller then) and it was not uncommon for some to be considered experts in all three fields. Take for example, as late as the 18th Century both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin could rightly be considered world-class politicians, farmers, geographers, inventors, philosophers, writers, statesmen, womanizers, botanists, etc. Will Nesbitt 15:31, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Will, I realize that your work on these ID articles is sincere and in good faith. I'm afraid your attempt to separate the concept/theory/doctrine of ID from the "ID movement" might be misguided. I'm not sure how much time you've spent digging into ID, but from what I have learned, I can only conclude that any separation of ID "thinkers" from the "movement" that promotes ID is purely political. They are one and the same. If you are not familiar with the Discovery Institute's infamous "wedge document," you should check it out. Wikipedia has an article on the wedge strategy. (Note that Behe and Dembski are players.) Anyone who likes a good horror story will enjoy it. --Eric Winesett 17:03, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Well, first, the Discovery Institute is not the only institution that promotes ID. Second, I wonder if that document is authentic, remember the "Elders of Zion" hoax? Please elaborate your points above. Regards. Yi Zhe Wu 17:05, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

The Discovery Institute itself does not deny that the document is authentic; they only say "so what?" (literally) and call it a fundraising proposal. (This is in the article linked above.) Who else promotes ID and is not connected to the Discovery institute? -Eric Winesett 18:19, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Me. ;^) Will Nesbitt 18:22, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I just read the article you recommended. File me under the "so what" camp. It just confirms that some people have passionate feelings about this idea and what it means. The Sierra Club probably has a strategy too as does the American Communist Party. The National Man Boy Love Association has a strategy to change laws in America too. But, the last time I checked (sorry for being a smart ass), people in the USA have the right to assemblage and they have freedom of speech. The very purpose for these two freedoms is so that people can change the system when they feel the system is wrong. Most usually these minority positions don't change a thing. Sometimes, as in the case of the Suffrage Movement and the Civil Rights Movement, they make considerable change to the American political landscape.

I trust the people. I don't fear NaMBLA's assemblage. I support NaMBLA's right to preach the "beauty" of pedofilia. I mainly support that right because the more these guys talk, the more ridiculous (and in some cases evil) they sound.

No matter how wrong-headed you might think ID is (and I'm not criticising you for holding that perfectly reasonable belief), you won't change the minds of those opposing hardcore believers. The only hope you have of convincing those who are on the fence is if you present both arguments as fairly as possible. Trust their logic. They'll figure it all out themselves. If you attempt to destroy the credibility of the argument by explaining the credentials of mainstream science while at the same time dimissing the opposition's reputation and motives, you will only add fuel to their fire.

Lastly, the so-called ID experts referenced in the article are clearly not thinkers (*heh*) but are proponents. Will Nesbitt 18:42, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm not sure what I said that made you think I was arguing against free speech. I am one of the people here (among with you, I think) who wants an unbiased article (without overwhelming the main topic with criticism) and who thinks it should be in the Biology Workgroup (not that it's good biology).

My point about the wedge document is merely to show that Behe and Dembski, who are held up by the ID movement as the scientific backers of the "theory", are themselves part of the ID movement. The idea that there are ID scientists who do not argue against evolution, while another completely separate group of people merely use ID claims to argue against evolution, is a fiction. For political reasons, the Discovery Institute likes that perception. The very same scientists who claim in public that ID does not point to a specific designer make it clear that they believe the designer is the Christian God when speaking to religious groups.-- Eric Winesett 01:06, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

My apologies if any offense was taken. I don't think you're against free speech. I think the tactic some have taken to "debunk" the idea is to point the alleged fact that all proponents are associated with the Discovery Institute as if this somehow diminishes the idea. Will Nesbitt 08:36, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Attribution

I want to advance a principle very relevant to this article. In the context of this article, we must not simply state scientific facts, which are contrary to ID, without attribution. You can say that virtually all biologists hold X to be well established, or some device similar to that, but to assert without qualification something that is straightforwardly contrary to ID is inconsistent with our Neutrality Policy.

Then the article reads as follows: "ID proponents say that X. But in fact, not-X. ID proponents assert that Y. But actually, not-Y."

Depending on X and Y, might be accurate, but it is not neutral. To secure both accuracy and neutrality, the template is like this: "ID proponents say that X. Virtually all X-ologists, however, say not-X. ID proponents assert that Y. Save for articles in journals edited by those same proponents, however, no peer-reviewed articles exist that support Y." --Larry Sanger 10:53, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I am reluctant to get involved in this debate, except insofar as general issues of Citizendium policy are concerned. This is partly because I am not trained as a natural scientist [although good social scientists try to adhere to scientific methodology] and partly because the whole ID issue is not taken seriously in Europe. We tend to see it as an American problem, specifically connected to the peculiar religions which seem to predominate over there.

On Larry's above point concerning refereed journals and attributions, I should also emphasise the American slant of it. Who other than Americans and Brits consider the content of refereed journals to be definitive statements of academic disciplines? Certainly, my own experience is that most journals referee very superficially and carelessly, and show an arrogant disdain for independent thinking and scientific argumentation. The result of this is that we cannot claim that the content of peer-reviewed journals identifies precisely the state of knowledge in any area; nor can we say precisely what is that state of knowledge. All knowledge is in flux, and no individual is privy to its identity at any point. Therefore, I disagree with the formulation of attribution above.

On the other hand, in the case of this specific article, I support completely the view that ID proponents refuse to accept the fundamental principles of modern philosophy of science. This is why the article belongs under the heading of Religion, and for the sake of encylopaedic accuracy a solid refutation of the approach [but not necessarily the claims] should be included from the Biology Editors. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:46, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I guess I wasn't clear. The "template" I specified above was not to be taken literally. So I wasn't meaning to make any point in specific about refereed journals. Anyway, I don't recall ever hearing from anyone of any nationality saying that the content of refereed journals are definitive statements of academic disciplines.

"That's only known in the U.S." or "that's an exclusively American phenomenon" is usually false. [3] [4]

The inclusion of the article in the Biology Workgroup does not (I should have thought) imply approval of intelligent design, as a doctrine, by the workgroup. --Larry Sanger 14:01, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

It is not a question of "approval" in terms of agreement with the premise, it is a question of approval of the article by editors in the biology workgroup as an approved article on CZ. There is no editor in the biology workgroup who has expertise in this topic, there are editors (all of them) in our workgroup who have expertise in basic evolution and natural selection. I had thought that those subjects were always discussed as an inherent part of ID, maybe in opposition, but that ID was an alternative view that was always presented in series with those subjects. This talk page now states that these are not points of fundamental disagreement between proponents of ID and biologists. Instead, ID purports a ... well, I still don't know. But if I still don't know, that's a problem. This article does not belong in the Biology workgroup for the simple reason that the biology workgroup does not contain an editor who can oversee approval of this article. What is "intelligent design"? I still don't know and I am not only the approvals editor I am a biology editor. Gareth has written some things, mostly that have been disputed by others. That is why I removed the Biology workgroup. I do not understand how we can have an article in our workgroup that we do not have the expertise to oversee, and that- from what I know of biology and from what I have read here, no biologist does by virtue ofher or his education and training in biology. Remember please, I orginally agreed with that workgroup placement. I do not now. My original agreement was because it seemed very prudent to have Biology oversee an article that was going to contain a discussion of evolution as a fundamental point. Will has pointed out that natural selection and evolution are possible along with ID, and he seems to be the "expert" here. I have also changed my mind because of an unexpected consequence of this article (and two others that have intelligent design in the title) being placed in the biology workgroup. There has also been yet another article on "creationism" today assigned to the Biology workgroup. I removed that tag, too. Please see my very recent post on the forums. Nancy Sculerati 14:15, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I am pleased to hear that this is not a template, Larry. I admit that I have imputed the reasoning about peer-review, not only from your suggestion but also from more general approaches which are easily identifed in the USA and UK.

The problem with ID is not its compatibility or otherwise with evolution or natural selection. It is the paradigm of argumentation which is inconsistent with a scientific approach, even if there are some respected scientists who support ID. Thus. it is not an issue of whether the biology workgroup agrees with the premise, it is whether they have the training and background to deal with the topic. In that sense, they likely disagree with the approach which is axiomatic rather than scientific-deductive and more properly belongs to religion.

By the way, Larry, as a matter of logic, I don't think finding one or two quirky Europeans who support ID invalidates my overall comment that it is not taken seriously in Europe. My general proposition is founded on sociological observations -- i.e. what people and the media actually talk about or hold as opinions. At least to date, ID is a non-issue for most Europeans. I hope it will remain so! --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:10, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

ID for Europeans is asking for their identity card. Any reference to intelligens design will get you a: hey that was dumped a century ago as wacko - don't bother us with religion. ID = Identity, nothing else. Robert Tito |  Talk  20:43, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Here's a belated rebuttal to the above two comments: Come on , gentlemen. Whether an idea is local or global may have some general correlations with validity and importance,on a sttistical level, but it's not a worthy argument to make about the truth of an idea. In this case, as I would argue, in all cases, the topic stands or falls on its own presentation and not on which continent, country, or political party asserts it or finds it important for discussion. Should an American tell me that X subject is not important because only the ____ (fill in the blank:English, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian, South American) people think it is, I would wonder at their narrow mindedness. I would also wonder why they imagine that who embraces an idea somehow stands above what the idea is in terms of its value. This article should be telling us what the idea is, where it came from, etc. just as any article in our encyclopedia should contain that kind of real information. We American (particluarly in New York) have a rather blunt saying that I think is quite appropriate to every author on Citizendium- that's "Put up or shut up". The "put up" means-"show me your data"- or "do the job right and show how it's done", rather than speculate, or complain that the job could be done better. That's my challenge here- and to everyone, far and away outside the question of local interest, enough already with the speculation and general discussion. Get the real informaton or don't waste our time. If you don't have the time or committment to buy the books, find the library that has them and read them, then what gives you the right to demand our attention?Nancy Sculerati 08:50, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

The aproach is axiomatic and that's why I do not follow it. It is not a scientific argument. Further, the subject matter is not part of biology-except, as I have said, where "Darwin" and "evolution" etc are mentioned, and the subject matter is living things. Again, if those Darwinian concepts are inherently an aspect of ID, please, even in opposition,I stand corrected and the Biology workgroup can offer its expertise concerning exactly that- evolution, natural selection etc. . But that inherent connection needs to be proved, not just the social fact that there is a fight - that some biologists have objected to the ID movement in the US trying to force this to be taught in schools along with evolution, That I know has happened, but that does not concern Biology as a workgroup that can oversee approval of the article. That's an education workgroup area of expertise-maybe. The Biology workgroup is completely over its head here, we have no training or expertise to judge this article anymore than we would have the expertise to judge another philosophy or religion article that offered conceptual arguments (axiomatic) about how life began or how human beings were created. I am not being coy- if someone presented ID in a scientific way and it was about living things I would accept our duty to review the article in the biology workgroup.I support our editor in chief and I support our duty to be neutral. I cannot support a duty to pretend that something is within the expertise of biology when it is not. I honestly cannot follow this article, -I was hopeful at first that it was going somewhere that could be understood from a biological perspective, since there have been repeated statements that ID is actually science and is supported or at least has been generated by scientists. I do not recognize it as science from what is written here. There is no detailed explanation of the idea, only the same simple point repeated. If I am wrong, and my hope was not misplaced,that somebody is going to really explain ID in a comprehensive way and then, once they do, it will be apparent that - though unpopular- ths is a scientific argument, of course that decision to have biology be the workgroup that can vet this article will have to be reviewed. But at this point, as far as I am concerned, this article is not in the biology workgroup. It cannot be, no matter what the category tag says, because we do not have the expertise to review it. If that tag belongs here -the onus is on the authors of the article to make the scientific argument of intelligent design for the origin of life. MAKE the argument, please, don't just say that ID is a scientific argument- show us, make the argument, and-since this is a compendium of knowlege and not just a discussion, cite those who have made similar arguments, name those who have given the lectures, written the books.I don't stand on ceremony about peer review, but there has to be more to it than what is written here so far. If there really is nothing deeper than what is already written here, then ... Nancy Sculerati 15:42, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Nancy, you and the other biologists here are, I think, ignoring the quite obvious point, which I have made over and over again, that the primary critics of ID are biologists. Maybe not you, but some other biologists. Earlier, I gave links to articles by E. O. Wilson and Richard Dawkins which criticized ID. I take it that (those) biologists are experts about those criticisms. This is apart from any argument that says ID is a theory (or doctrine) about speciation or about the origin of life (although I believe it claims to be both). Moreover, we can say that those biologists are experts about those criticisms regardless of the stance we take on the question whether ID is science. I certainly don't assume that it is; it doesn't matter whether or not it is.

Nancy, when you say, "we have no training or expertise to judge this article anymore than we would have the expertise to judge another philosophy or religion article," if by "we" you mean "all biologists," I believe you are mistaken. There are other biologists who do care about ID enough to refute it, such as Wilson and Dawkins, and many others, who give scientific (not philosophical or religious) testimony as necessary before committees that examine the question whether ID is science, or credible, or worthy of being taught. By the way, biologists per se are not competent to approve any religious or philosophical claims that are made in the article. They are competent to review the biological claims and whatever claims are made about their own criticisms of ID. So, probably, the Biology Workgroup should not be the approving workgroup for this article; but they can keep it from being approved, I'd say.

For biologists to deny that ID belongs in the Biology Workgroup would be like philosophers denying that an article about Ayn Rand belongs in the Philosophy Workgroup. Philosophers, if they know about her, generally have great contempt for Rand, and would not want to be associated with an article about her; but she was writing about their field, and some philosophers nevertheless do have some criticisms of her (not often published, but nevertheless quite common). They are, therefore, experts at the very least about how they respond to her--which is a crucial part of the article, without which the article would not be neutral.

This article needs scientific review, precisely because it is about a controversial doctrine that purports to be scientific. If not the Biology Workgroup, then we will have to create another workgroup, such as "Non-mainstream Science." --Larry Sanger 11:42, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Further on the "proper workgroup" issue. I wrote:

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. David, are you suggesting that we not have an article about intelligent design at all? If you agree that it's all right that we have one, then how do you think the article should be improved? --Larry Sanger 08:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

David Tribe answered:

Larry my position is that it will inevitably attempt to include much discussion that will fail to meet ethical criteria of professional scientists. Already at least two editors in that group have stated that it will not fit. This was overridden. We are thus faced with the unpleasant task of ensuring what is written is consistent with professional biology. A simple solution is to take it out of that category. While it's under Biology it must be based on evidence about the natural world that has meet peer review criticism. The onus of those who wish to discuss it is to provide that basis. Its a tough ask. The same, less difficult actually, applies to the argument that HIV does not cause AIDS, and several other controversies. I have no problems with a CZ article on ID but if its categorised as natural science it has to meet certain demanding critical standards. In math it would have to meet the math editors standard. It might fit with History, and Current Events. David Tribe 18:18, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for clarifying. Now I know where we disagree: you believe that all articles under Biology "must be based on evidence about the natural world that has meet peer review criticism." This implies that Biology will not manage (or co-manage) any articles that concern discredited theories. But this is wrong. Are you saying that Biology will not have articles about spontaneous generation? That no longer meets peer review criticism, I take it. But surely we can agree that that doesn't matter; Biology should still manage that article. Similarly, ID claims to have a theory of speciation and the origin of life; biologists (including many if not all the really famous ones) attack such claims; surely that's enough for Biology to co-manage the article.

You also say that "if it [i.e., ID] is "categorised as natural science" then "it has to meet certain demanding critical standards." But to say that Biology is managing this article does not mean that it is categorized as science. Logically it follows that Biology has crucial input--enough to stop an article from being approved--on articles about topics that biologists deny are natural science.

Look, if after all of these arguments, the Biologists are all uniformly against including it in the Biology Workgroup, because they think that whatever topics they manage must "meet certain demanding critical standards," then, along with spontaneous generation, I'll (a) remove the workgroup assignment, and (b) forbid you from preventing this article from being approved, even when it makes misleading claims about biology. Deal? --Larry Sanger 12:07, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

P.S. We might re-assign spontaneous generation exclusively to the History Workgroup. --Larry Sanger 12:10, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Scientific Participation

Nancy, I think the reason Larry et. al. would like to get you to participate in this article on some level is to address science where it is warped to push an agenda. But I think it's important for academics and scientists to participate in this discussion to help refute the claim that there is a conspiracy of some sort to suppress ID in schools. I welcome any edits to the section I just added to refute the claim of conspiracy against ID. Will Nesbitt 19:21, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't know enough about this to make an edit. I tried (see above-mountain ranges), just working within the text- and I apparently made errors. If you have any books written by the proponents of intelligent design, perhaps you could quote the arguments made in support of intelligent design. Will, I am personally sympathetic to you- all I can find on medline and my sources are rebuttals to the idea that natural selection is disproved if all intermediate structures are not completely functional in the same way as is already given here in the article, and has been cited above here on the talk page. Can you find more complete explanations of what irreducible complexity means? Or an example of some kind that supports ID - a detailed example? Quote somebody and give the reference. Nancy Sculerati 19:32, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Nancy, I appreciate you bearing with me and I hope that extruding this article hasn't been too painful to this point. If you can't tell, on a personal level I identify more with the scientists and less with the proponents in many ways. Unfortunately, I'm just an ID sympathizer and not an ID proponent, so I can't provide you the sources we are all seeking. (My resources are probably more limited than yours.)

If an opponent said this he'd get pilloried, but hopefully I have a little more latitude when I state most proponents of ID are not scientists and many ID proponents do not really think about this topic rationally or from a informed position. I think my little role (which I've probably over-stepped) is just to keep the scientists from accidentally saying to the proponents, "You're stupid and wrong." I think the article's theme --- I know scientists don't have themes, but my background is as a writer not as a scientist --- should be "you might be right, but there is no evidence for it". As long as we take that tact, you can educate people without inflaming them. Will Nesbitt 19:52, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

You can't educate people without information. If a person is interested in bringing this up on Citizendium, then I asume they are interested enough to purchase the books, and read them, and write about them. Nancy Sculerati 20:21, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Conjecture and personal opinion

The newly added section "Problems with the charge of scientific conspiracy against intelligent design" is simply conjecture and personal opinion. While I would wish it were true, I would like to think that scientists are all so high minded. I am certainly skeptical. The real truth is probably somewhere between. I doubt there's an organized conspiracy, but there certainly is a lot of hostility. At any rate, the section is not encyclopedic. I'm tempted to remove it, but will wait for discussion. David L Green 21:25, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

It certainly won't hurt my feelings if it is pulled. I inserted it as a starting point because I think it's germaine to the subject and this charge should be addressed in some way. I don't know where to find a source to support this, simply because the charge is so ridiculous, it's difficult to find a rebuttal. Will Nesbitt 08:33, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

David, I see that that paragraph has been removed. I'm not sure that my opinion/conjecture is the answer, but I think there should be something to address both the charge of a conspiracy against ID and the general hostility against ID. To leave these subjects unaddressed would imply (to the hard-core believers) that we are a part of that conspiracy. Will Nesbitt 08:44, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

The point about where ideas have come from, and also where they circulate, is germane to the comments made above and also to Nancy's reply to myself and Robert Tito. Whereas the underlying philosophical basis of modern science is that the provenance of ideas is irrelevant [and what matters is the argument and associated proof], in other contexts it is actually central. This is the difference between science and religion, for example. It is also a major sociological difference: why are these ideas about ID not circulating in Europe? The reason lies clearly in their modern American origin, alongside the absence in Europe of particular religious groups acting with political intent. The very thought that any Church could even try to dictate the content of science teaching in European schools is absolutely unacceptable to the Continent which experienced the Reformation. This has nothing to do with science and everything to do with history and sociology. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 09:34, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

"This has nothing to do with science and everything to do with history and sociology." Which makes it completely irrelevant to the present article, and relevant to intelligent design movement. --Larry Sanger 10:53, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

I wrote the above paragraph in relation to the section about scientific conspiracy. If you make sure that the article has no claims of an historical or sociological nature, then my comment is partially-relevant [rather than irrelevant] and the issues should be covered by the Intelligent Design Movement, with appropriate linkages to that article. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:38, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Fair play Martin, point taken. --Larry Sanger 13:38, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Questions we are disagreeing about?

All--I think we need to decide what specific questions need to be decided, and make some decisions, or else we are going to continue to waste enormous amounts of time. The one question that I know we need to decide--finally--upon is whether the article belongs in the Biology Workgroup. What are some others such that, by answering them, we can reduce some of the needless controversy surrounding this article? --Larry Sanger 10:51, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

As a reader, here are things that I would like to know:

• When was the term "intelligent design" first used to describe this idea? Who used it?
• What are the major works in publication that are considered by experts in ID to be important?
• What do these works say, in detail, concerning how life was designed or came about?
• Who has claimed that ID is science? Actual names and quotes please.
• What are the scientific publications (even if they are self-published) of ID?
• What do these contain? Detailed summaries, with quotes.

Nancy Sculerati 11:03, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. That's a useful list (and I'd like answers to all of those questions, too), but that's not what I meant. I meant: what questions, in particular, are we disagreeing about? Another question is: do nonspecialists have the right to edit the article? I think the answer to this question is: "Obviously yes. Why should it be different for this article? Because it's controversial? That makes no difference: we have no policy that says that only experts may edit any class of articles--even the class of approved articles."

Any other questions that we are disagreeing about? --Larry Sanger 11:15, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

My question is, Who in the religion workgroup is truly expert enough to approve this article? and if no one, why is everyone wasting so much time here? Don't be baited into wasting your energies. The article is still poor, in my opinion, and will continue to be until people actually read "Books by Intelligent Design proponents" and cite them rather than regulating the book titles to a footnote! ---Stephen Ewen 13:34, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Still not the sort of question I meant, Steve...I've changed the section title to make it clearer. --Larry Sanger 13:37, 27 May 2007 (CDT)