Talk:Association football/Archive 1

Why move

Why did you just move this without discussion? No one associates Soccer with "Association Football" --Robert W King 15:06, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I agree. This needs to be discussed. Review Naming Conventions: articles should live at the most common (correct) names for topics, not necessarily at their most "official" or "legal" names.

I'd suggest someone move it back, then discuss. Consult Wikipedia on this one; they probably have a sensible solution. --Larry Sanger 15:09, 26 January 2008 (CST)

May I be allowed to respond to the question before it is summarily "moved back"?

I'll try again. This is what I wrote before I discovered the "instant redirect".

In England and everywhere except North America, the sport is known as football. It is only known as soccer in North America where it is a minority sport; whereas elsewhere it is the major sport on the planet. Given that Citizendium is US-orientated, it seems sensible to split the divide between football and soccer by reference to the official name of the sport. To say that no one associates soccer with Association Football is I'm afraid very wide of the mark in world terms: it is called football worldwide and it is generally understood to be Association Football, which distinguishes it from the Australian, Canadian, Gaelic, Rugby and American variants. --John Leach 15:21, 26 January 2008 (CST)

John, the article was moved back because I asked that it be moved back; that's all. I then asked that the issue be fully and politely discussed, which we're now doing, I'm happy to see. (Although I'm not so happy about the apparent acrimony here. Please review CZ:Professionalism, all.) --Larry Sanger 12:17, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Accoring to the naming conventions, however, if there are other instances of "Football" that are not the same as "Soccer" or "American Football" then it should probably named as such: "Football (derivation)". Example, Football (American), Football (soccer), Football (Gaelic). However, please note that there already is a Gaelic football which describes the differences already. Despite the fact that we are largely US-oriented, we still take into account considerations from worldly perspectives. For example, if you noticed on /Metadata pages, we have a "Variant" field which suggests articles can be written in American English, British, Australian etc... --Robert W King 15:24, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Robert, surely you know that we do not intend to be "largely U.S.-oriented," as you claim we are. I simply want to make clear that we are not "U.S.-oriented" in any sense whatsoever, at least not intentionally. We are English language-oriented. --Larry Sanger 12:11, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Wait, I did say that. I think I was thinking "English oriented" and said "US oriented" by mistake. --Robert W King 12:14, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Just to follow up on Larry's suggestion to check WP, the article is named Association Football, with Soccer redirecting to it. Also, Gaelic football doesn't explain the differences of anything, it just points out what rules it took from soccer and rugby. --Todd Coles 15:29, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Additionally I'd like to mention that we have Football as a disambig page. --Robert W King 15:42, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Football is a disambig page because there are at least the six main variants I've listed above. But this variant is called Association Football in British English. The sport originated in England and remains the national sport of both England and Scotland, from where it has become the national sport of most countries in the world. Americans may choose to call it soccer but that is not what the rest of the world calls it. By suggesting football (soccer) as the name of the article, you are taking the American view and football in the US is a minority sport. In GB it is called football and nothing else: the German word is Fußball, the Spanish word is Futbol and nearly all other countries where it is the national sport follow suit. An exception is Italy, which had an early form of the sport called "calcio" (to kick), and this name has stuck. --John Leach 16:03, 26 January 2008 (CST)

And Todd is absolutely right on both counts. --John Leach 16:06, 26 January 2008 (CST)

My reasoning for keeping it at Football (soccer) is this: we have a redirect at Soccer to this article; additionally, at Football it is listed as "Association Soccer" that redirects to here anyway. Since this title covers both known terms (football and soccer), it sufficies for both American and other wordly english-speaking audiences. Additionally, if one were to use the "Search" function for football, you'd get the disambig page *anyway*. Even though the "technical term" may be Association Football, I'd be hard pressed to find many people around the world that actually call it that as opposed to just plain-jane "football". This is the "two-birds, one-stone" solution which I think justifies it's place. --Robert W King 23:59, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I would rather have all them examples redirect to association football. Take it from a man who has played it from as young as he can remember, we never call it 'soccer'. That is entirely an American phenonoman. Denis Cavanagh 07:10, 27 January 2008 (CST)

At the Football disambig page it is listed as Association Football not "Association Soccer"; and just because there is a redirect from Soccer to this article does not mean the redirect is correct. It is because there are other games known colloquially as football that disambiguation is required. An American searching for football is almost certainly looking for gridiron; an Australian might be looking for either Rules or RL; while a British person is almost certainly looking for football as in short for Association football. Without the other forms of football, the title of the article would be simply Football. But because a measure of disambiguation is necessary, the title has to be the full name Association Football. "Soccer" is like a nickname and (in the case of a person) unless a nickname is universally used instead of his real name (e.g., Pele), the title of the article must be his real name. Soccer is not universally used. About the only places where it is widely used are Australia and the USA, in both of which it is a minority sport. Like Denis, I played football from being a small child and we never called it soccer. --John Leach 07:50, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Even though your first sentence is bogus logic, I have considered bringing up the point for Americans that American Football should probably live at the page Football (NFL) or NFL Football. In any case having Football as a disambiguation page is the solution that seeks to be the common denominator (that there are many uses for the word "Football") and satisfies all those cases. --Robert W King 11:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I agree with nearly everything John says, but still agree with Robert that 'Football {what we call it} (soccer) {what those for whom it is a minority sport call it}' is the simplest & most elegant solution. Ro Thorpe 11:09, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Dennis, there is no "Broad agreement" on the move. --Robert W King 11:51, 27 January 2008 (CST)

For what it's worth, I have just created a "catalogs" page under the Olympic Games article which contains a list of catalogs of Olympic medalists in _______ (insert name of sport). In the listing, I used the name Football for what is called soccer here in America. Football is the official IOC name for the sport. That may or may not be a reason to consider in naming this page, though. I certainly think that is the name (perhaps with soccer in parentheses) which should be used in reference to the Olympics, since it is official there. James F. Perry 11:11, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Robert, You are not in some sort of special position to over-rule any of us here. We all agree on what football is and what it is called. Even the Olympics call it Football. I'll not try to move the page again, but what you have done is downright uppity. Denis Cavanagh 11:52, 27 January 2008 (CST) P.S- You seem to be the only person who supports calling it Football (soccer). Denis Cavanagh 11:53, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Dennis, there hasn't been any kind of agreement on what it should be called. Moving it on your part was presumpuous. Ro Thorpe seems to agree, and Todd Coles has no stated position yet. --Robert W King 11:54, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Association Football is what it is called. There is across the board agreement here, with the exception of yourself. Never mind the fact that association football is the official name. Denis Cavanagh 11:56, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Dennis, please read the Talk page carefully. You and John are the only two that support moving to Association Football. Ro agrees that this solution is the best, and there hasn't been any other input. Regardless of "What it is technically called", sometimes simplest is best. --Robert W King 12:00, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I have personally never heard the "association" part of it, but that's not surprising. If we want to stick with the Football (type) naming convention, what about Football (Association) with a soccer redirect? That way the article is named in a way a majority of the English speaking world would understand it, but it will still get soccer's traffic. --Todd Coles 11:59, 27 January 2008 (CST)

In retrospect, I should have supported Todd's position, which incidently, I do now. --Robert W King 12:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Please don't ask me to read the page again when you clearly haven't read James' post. Denis Cavanagh 12:02, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Just because the IOC calls it that, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best solution for all parties considered and for "regular usage", whatever that happens to be in different countries. --Robert W King 12:04, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I have no interest whatsoever in joining in here (and I will not), but I would like to point out two obvious points. First, we don't all agree about what the name should be; that's why we're having the discussion. No legitimate argument can start from the premise "we all agree what the name should be." Second, "football" is the name given to what is arguably the most important sport in the United States, a country with some 300 million English speakers. Also, I don't see the relevance whatsoever (and never have) that other languages have cognate words (like German's fussball): the relevant question is what the word used among native English speakers, when speaking English. Since different words are used for the same thing, a compromise must be reached. I am stipulating that as Editor-in-Chief. Your task, which I encourage you to do as pleasantly and politely as possible, is to settle upon what the fairest compromise is.

If it becomes very clear that no compromise can be reached, I hope the contributors here will let me know, and I will decide what the next step will be. --Larry Sanger 12:04, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I reinserted Roberts comment. Don't see anything questionable in it. For my part, I will bow out. I support it being moved to Association Football, but I'll leave that particular good fight to others to resolve. Denis Cavanagh 12:08, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Denis, that was an edit conflict. However, a constable should be by to clean some of the above up soon.

Also, I'm disappointed that you don't wish to hammer out a compromise, Denis, or that you aren't interested in arguing that your position (Association Football) is an appropriate compromise (perhaps it could be supported as a compromise position). I'd like to impress upon you, and upon everyone reading this, how important reasonable compromise is as a policy for the health of a global, intellectually diverse project. --Larry Sanger 12:24, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I would suggest, Robert, that that isn't a complete enough proposal. A complete proposal, that many people will be able to sign onto, would explain where all the relevant pages live, what the disambiguation pages are, what the redirections are, and why. --Larry Sanger 12:28, 27 January 2008 (CST)

Positions and techiques

The whole article as it stands obviously needs expansion with several supporting articles to be started too (e.g., history, World Cup, European Cup). But this article itself needs some serious work on the techniques and positions sections in particular. It simply won't do, especially the bit about midfielders, and the reference to juggling is ridiculous. Do players juggle the ball in the MSL? They don't in the Premier League or Serie A or La Liga or the Bundesliga, where the game is very serious indeed. I'll try and work on this when time allows and get some good European and South American sources too. --John Leach 16:33, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I've edited the juggling bit - Ro Thorpe 17:16, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Association Football

Its only really called soccer in the US, and very sparsely elsewhere. It is one of (If not the most) widely played sports on the planet, and is usually referred to as simply 'football'. Since we cannot call it 'European' football like the Yanks would with their football game, we must call it 'Association Football', with which the majority of the world identifies it. Think in the broader, international context. Denis Cavanagh 18:08, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Please see the discussion above - Ro Thorpe 18:13, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Proposal

Proposal - move "Soccer"-style Football to Football (Association), with Soccer redirecting to it to maintain the naming convention style. Also updating the disambiguation page at Football to read accordingly. Because the Football disambiguation page serves as a way to distinguish different contexts of the word (for English-speaking audiences), anyone that searches for Football will be directed there regardless of what style of Football they are intending to find (all inclusive to the redirect instead of only some-inclusive).

Proposal Amendment - also in lieu of the fact that "Football" in the US means something specific, and because American-style Football is practically associated with the National Football League or NFL, recommend that American football get changed to NFL Football, given that worldly varients are also titled at CZ as: Gaelic football, Austrailian Rules football, and Canadian football as they are listed at the disambiguation page.

• I would be satisfied by Todd's suggestion that it be moved to Football (Association) with the appropriate Soccer redirect. Does anyone second? --Robert W King 12:20, 27 January 2008 (CST)