Talk:Bill Clinton

Article Checklist for "Bill Clinton"

Workgroup category or categories	Politics Workgroup, History Workgroup, Topic Informant Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status	Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
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Checklist last edited by	Versuri 10:25, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

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Word Choice

Which would be the best word to describe those of alternative sexual preference; "gay" or "homosexual"?--Robert W King 09:56, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

Gushing?

This turn of phrase comes across like cheerleading: "Known as a brilliant campaigner and policy wonk ...". Aren't all Presidents brilliant campaigners? Aren't all gold medalists "brilliant athletes"? All Presidents also know a great deal about policy. I think Clinton is a brilliant campaigner. I think Bill Clinton knows policy. But what President doesn't?

Also, it has been argued that it's of prime importance to mention that George W. Bush didn't win the popular vote vs. Gore. Is it important to mention that Clinton did not win a majority in either of his elections? Will Nesbitt

Clinton was a much better campaigner than Kerry, Gore, Dukakis, Mondale, or Carter, experts agree. He's a policy wonk, they all agree--like Gore but UNLIKE George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan. Richard Jensen 07:14, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

Clinton is a better campaigner than Carter, who only won one term. None of the others you mention were Presidents. Carter was clearly a better campaigner than Kerry, Gore, Dukakis or Mondale. (I voted for both Dukakis and Mondale, btw.) So the question remains, what President wasn't a great campaigner? Truman, Nixon, Kennedy, Reagan and virtually every other two term President was a "brilliant campaigner". Can't we just say he had two terms? That's a fact. His "brilliance" is an opinion. It is an opinion that can be argued.

Consider this: if Bill Clinton was so brilliant then why did ALL of the candidates you just mentioned gain a higher percentage of the popular vote than Clinton. And MOST of those candidates lost! A lot more people voted for Gore than Clinton in either of Clinton's elections. (It must be noted that I'm not arguing your point. I'm merely showing that the point can be argued.)

I would much safer and much less inflammatory to report the fact that he won two terms instead of taking an official stance on Clinton's brilliance. Alternately, we could cite an expert who said Clinton but brilliant.

We don't know much about the Bush administration yet, because he's still in office. When Reagan was in office it was widely reported that (and I believed that) he was a bit of a good natured dolt. The story was that Reagan didn't really understand this or that. Now that the internal documents have been released and now that Reagan is in a historical context, we have learned that he had a brilliant political mind and he was far more involved than anyone ever suspected at the time.

I don't understand why those opinions remain in the text, but the fact that Clinton never won a majority is not mentioned. Compare and contrast this with the George W. Bush. I don't care if it's mentioned or not, but I do think there should be something resembling consistency. The Bush intro is about vote counts. The Clinton intro is about how brilliant he is? Will Nesbitt 09:23, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

I'd rather build a consensus than edit in a vacuum, but if I receive no response I'll assume that this is a non-issue and insert. Will Nesbitt 08:56, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

The rules of the game call for winning the electoral college, with Clinton did by two landslides (compare Bush's two very-narrow=electoral colege wins) Richard Jensen 10:32, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

On evaluations of Clinton's campaign skills see [1] I have never seen a serious critic challenge the consensus about his skills, often compared to Reagan as the best in 60+ years </ref>

My argument is that everyone who won two presidential elections (except possibly Washington) was a pretty good campaigner. On the other hand, if the name of the game is winning the electoral college then why mention the popular vote when talking about Bush. I don't care which way it's reported, but it should be reported the same way for both presidents. Will Nesbitt 11:29, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

BTW, there is a big difference between quoting an expert who describes Clinton as a brilliant campaigner and arriving at a value judgment then stating Clinton is a brilliant campaigner. Will Nesbitt 11:57, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Actually Jensen is an expert on the history of American election campaigns. That's why he's at CZ not Wikipedia. :) Richard Jensen 12:59, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Of course, any expert in any field (Jensen included) would have a conflict of interest with regards to questioning his own opinion. So please don't take it personally when I say that I challenge this opinion, albeit an expert one. It is my hope and expectation that Jensen will remain objective while I lay the grounds for my challenge of this opinion, and more importantly how the opinion is presented. I challenge this opinion, not because it is wrong, but rather for these three reasons: 1) it is a value judgment; 2) the same could be said of nearly all Presidents; 3) editorial balance. While challenging the opinion, I think the opinion is a valued and important one.

I oppose Citizendium making value judgments, because Citizendium speaks for all of us. Therefore, I think it inappropriate and would oppose a Citizendium article which said, "Clinton is a brilliant campaigner and a policy wonk." However, I support quoting expert opinions. Thus, I would support an edit which said, "Jensen says Clinton is a brilliant campaigner and a policy wonk." Like me, the reader might very well examine the credentials and motives of Jensen and agree that he is a credible resource. Unfortunately, if Citizendium crosses this line we are no longer a credible resource.

As I wrote, above I think all Presidents are by default brilliant. Although many Presidents have been called stupid, it's a statistical improbability that a man can rise to that level of power in a democratic system without have the confidence of a great many people who have had the opportunity to examine the man up-close and personally. Sometimes only in retrospect do we come to learn how brilliant a President was. Often there are material facts which are undisclosed to critics and to the public that later exonerate decisions which were panned when they were made. Therefore, calling a President brilliant is like calling a boxer strong or a cheetah fast or calling a fish wet. Unless you say it about every single President, this statement reads like partisan cheerleading.

On the point of editorial balance, I have compared and contrasted this article about Clinton and to George W. Bush. When I read Bush, I do not find a value judgment praising about Bush's best qualities as an apology for his shortcomings. Both men have shortcomings. Both men have strengths. In the Bush article editors find it important to mention the popular vote, but there is no mention of the fact that Clinton did not reached a majority of popular vote in a Presidential election. These articles should be a mirror image of facts and opinions. They are not.

In present form, there is an editorial detachment from Bush and but an editorial affinity for Clinton. I would prefer to find an editorial detachment from both men. However, I'm willing to defer to my editor's better instincts and allow for an affinity for both men. But whatever editorial choice is made, in all fairness, both men should meet with the same standards of journalism. If a fact is material for one man, then a similar fact is material for another. If a gushing value judgment is fair for one man, than no doubt a gushing value judgment can be found for the other man.

Although I think Clinton's brilliance has been overstated by those who do not understand the crazy Perot voters (i.e. me), please don't read this to mean that I am seriously trying to say that Clinton is something less than brilliant. I agree that Jensen and a good many other experts think Clinton is brilliant. Few serious people would disagree with those opinions. Will Nesbitt 07:02, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Geez, Will, don't you read the NYT, Time, Newsweek, other newspapers, editorials from all over, columnists from all over? For the last 15 years these sources have almost universally used the word brilliant or great or unrivalled or some such when talking about Clinton's political skills, no matter whether they liked him or not. "The greatest politician since FDR" is a common phrase. I don't see how you can *possibly* argue with Prof. Jensen about this. Are you going to say that FRD and LBJ weren't brilliant politicians? Dan Quayle was a heartbeat from the Presidency: Does that make *him* a brilliant politician? You can write "Bill Clinton was a despicable president [I saw that yesterday in the Oakland Tribune], a lousy human being, but a brilliant politician." And it might be true, at least the politician part. Hayford Peirce 11:43, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

At first I thought you were being sacarstic, because you listed a series of sources which I generally scoff at. Then I realized what you were saying is that you do not read the Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal and other papers with increasing (not diminishing) circulation. Some of us (we're called "the minority" now, but for 12 years we were called "the majority") take each of the sources you mention with a grain of salt. Don't take that to mean that I'm being angry or argumentative. I'm actually a bit amused.

Your response seems to ignore the part where I repeated: "please don't read this to mean that I am seriously trying to say that Clinton is something less than brilliant". Clinton is probably brilliant. Like it or not, Bush is probably brilliant too. (I believed Reagan was a dolt when the same sources you just listed told me he was a dolt. Now that I know more of the truth it's hard to get me to agree again that a sitting President is a dolt.) As I said above (you must have missed it) all Presidents are brilliant politicians. This would include LBJ and FDR. I would say that Dan Quayle is a pretty damn good politician too. Why? With his (lack of) skills, he managed to guide his career to the Vice Presidency? If that's not an example of over-achieving and brilliant politics, I don't know what is.

It's fair and accurate to say that NY Times, Newsweek, the Boston Globe and others describe Clinton as brilliant. It's okay for Jensen to say that in his opinion Clinton is brilliant. What is unfair is to make a definitive value judgment about Clinton's brilliance. When we say that any of the sources say Clinton is brilliant we can put it in a context with everything else they've said. When we say Clinton is brilliant that we begin to define our own official opinions. I don't think that's where this reference wants to go. I'm pretty sure that NPOV means that Citizendium doesn't make value judgments about the brilliance of individuals. We report the value judgments of others. Thus, it is not our place to take a position on Clinton's brilliance. However, it is our place to report on what others have said about his brilliance.

I've already address my personal opinions on Clinton's brilliance. You're free to disagree with my opinions. Obviously, many people think he's brilliant. I'm more concerned with the three issues I raised that were not addressed. I challenged this verbiage, not because it is wrong, but rather for these three reasons: 1) it is a value judgment; 2) the same could be said of nearly all Presidents; 3) editorial balance. I've explained these issues at length above.

Sorry for being so thorny and thanks for chiming in. Your input is valued. Will Nesbitt 15:04, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Pardons

Is there room in this article for the Marc Rich et al pardons on the way out the door? Will Nesbitt 09:31, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

When an expert says Clinton is one of the best campaigners in last half century readers show pay attention. It's true and widely held by all experts in the field. Editoral detachment that leaves the truth out (which is non-controversial and important) makes a bad encyclopedia.Richard Jensen 11:04, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm sorry I can't understand what you're saying. Are you say that Alberto Gonzalez is important enough to warrant a paragraph under George W. Bush, but Clinton's mass pardons aren't worth mentioning? Will Nesbitt 15:15, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

I think eventually there will be a section dealing with those controversies, including the Marc Rich's pardon, the impeachment, and the China fundraising scandal, among others. Yi Zhe Wu 15:14, 24 July 2007 (CDT)