Talk:Butler/Draft

Roger Lohmann has nominated the version dated 06:45, 10 August 2007 (CDT) of this article for approval. Other editors may also sign to support approval. The Sociology Workgroup and Anthropology Workgroup are overseeing this approval. Unless this notice is removed, the article will be approved on 2007-08-18.

Article Checklist for "Butler/Draft"

Workgroup category or categories	Sociology Workgroup, Anthropology Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status	Developed article: complete or nearly so
Underlinked article?	No
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	John Stephenson 05:15, 13 August 2007 (CDT) Aleta Curry 23:55, 24 July 2007 (CDT) Aleta Curry 18:04, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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WP Author notice

	NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
	In lieu of WP notice: I wrote the original for WP between January and March 2005, and edited through 2006. There was very little imput from others, and so I am not ticking the WP box. The reference to the story of Joseph was not part of my original draft, but since it's biblical I feel no qualms about including it, and in any case I have expanded upon the idea and included the chapter. I intend to maintain this article. Aleta Curry 18:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
	Check the history of edits to see who inserted this notice.

Re References

I don't know how to format the citations, so I just typed in numbers by hand. If anyone can fix this before I figure it out, please do. Aleta Curry 18:08, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Done ;-) --Kjetil Ree 20:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Aleta, download http://sunnybar.dynip.com/pub/wikicite.exe and cite away with ease.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 22:21, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Images

• To use this ask these folks by mail.

 —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 19:32, 10 August 2007 (CDT)

It is remarkable, and perhaps a commentary, that I have been unable after several hours of searching to find photos of modern butlers in action. I've gotten desperate and posted a message to a butler message board requesting such photos. Keeping my fingers crossed.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 15:18, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Obviously I found an lede image, but I think better is possible.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 16:17, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Joseph

The story of Joseph in the biblical book of Genesis contains an early reference to those in the role of butlers and stewards. Joseph, sold as a slave in Egypt, rises to become the head of Potiphar’s household staff, his chief steward, while the Pharaoh’s servant whose dream Joseph interprets has been translated into English as the chief butler.

Even after I weakened this, this still seems like it is reading too much into the fact that, among the literal scores of English Bible translations, just one uses dynamic equivalence to translate the Hebrew word as "butler". It seems the much stronger point would be to state that the role of chief household servant has existed across many cultures since recorded history, and give various examples, including in Egypt as depicted by the image I added to the article.

 —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 13:01, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, first, not sure I understand--are you interpreting this as an attempt to prove that the English word "butler" has existed since the time of the pharaohs? I had no such intent. It's just a famous story that illustrates that such manservants were known in those times. And it's not just one--I had a quick look and the much-used Revised Standard Version uses "butler" and "chief butler" as well, as does the poetic language of the King James Version. Not sure of your use of "dynamic equivalence"--Bible translators try to use words that have currency. The only point I was making was that the position of butler--with its attending responsibilities has evolved out of duties that have existed for centuries.

Whether they were called, specifically, "wine steward", "cupbearer", "steward", or "butler" makes no difference. The point is that it is an ancient position. I can try to make this clearer.

Aleta Curry 18:04, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Go for it. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 15:06, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

An issue is with the use of "steward". The text tries to connect בית (bayith) with the English word "steward", but בית (bayith) is not translated as such, at least not in any of the 20 or so English Bible translations I have consulted, which includes all of the major ones. The text says "'Steward' came to mean the person in overall charge of the estate; he managed household accounts and collected estate rents", but this seems very shaky. When did this happen? In the Roman Empire, for example, it already held that connotation. I've simply removed that quote from the article for now. It does seem to read fine without it.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:25, 13 August 2007 (CDT)