CZ Talk:How To

Article name

Would CZ:Math and Chemistry Symbols be a better-named home? Stephen Ewen 09:44, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, depends on if you're going to expand it to talk about how to achieve other visual effects (e.g like tables, etc), or not. If so, maybe something a little more generic, like <brain refuses to be clever and emit a snappy nam, but I think you get where I'm going>. If not, your suggested new title is fine. J. Noel Chiappa 09:48, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Ideally, I would have thought that it should be like CZ:How to/Math, or CZ:How to/Tables, or CZ:How to/Chemistry, and then on the main CZ:How to page, an index. --Robert W King 09:57, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

I intend to fill the page with lots of things, like tables, how to scale images, etc. So, a general page. It will also have links to "How to Start an article" and other pages. David E. Volk 10:07, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Okay, cool. I think Robert's idea is interesting.... Stephen Ewen 10:12, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Hey, this might inspire a neat format for this...after it gets written, anyway. Stephen Ewen 15:21, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

That's all fine and good, but I don't think there are enough icons, or in fact -the- icons necessary. --Robert W King 15:26, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Too many pages already

As I see it, one of the complaints people have is that things are explained in too many places, meaning that finding them is a real $%*&#@. I am thinking that one link on the left of everypage saying "How to ..". The how to page will have directions or links to everything. Like how to start an article, how to apply on CZ, how to import an image, how to make an equation. Drats, my ride to pick up my car at the dealership is here. More thoughts later. out David E. Volk 16:39, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Hear hear! Let's collaborate to remedy this.... Stephen Ewen 16:53, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Excellent idea! "Make it so!" (I'm of course ready to help!) J. Noel Chiappa 17:37, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

How to make a template

We need someone to make a how to make a template page we can link to or make it a section on this page David E. Volk 10:28, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

I'm on it. --Robert W King 10:30, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Looks good; maybe a topic this complex deserves a page of its own, which can be linked to from here? J. Noel Chiappa 13:43, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Equations, and "ramp up" to complex

I think for many of these things, we ought to start simple and ramp up to difficult. For example in the math equations section, why not just start off with variables, and basic functions and then include factions, limits, etc. Maybe provide 10 overall examples, each increasing in complexity. I think this will this encourage users to expore the potential in each How-to, such that they may feel encouraged to move beyond what we provide as a basic. --Robert W King 11:31, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Sounds good, but the page will get rather long if we put it all here. It was suggested above that this page be mostly a 'traffic director', sending people off to pages with more detail; maybe the extra content can go elsewhere?

But structuring each one as a 'here's a simple example; here's a more complex one; here's a really hard one' sounds like an excellent idea. People seem to learn a lot more easily and quickly from that sort of graded example than they do from dry explanations of syntax and semantics. (Says JNC, who's currently struggling with that sort of thing as he gets into Advanced Templatology...) J. Noel Chiappa 13:43, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

trafic director

My gut feeling is that if something that can be explained in < 10 lines it should be shown, and that larger problems, like template design, starting a page with subpages, should be a link to a very good explaination. So, we could show say three typical math equations, and a link to a longer article for the complex stuff. David E. Volk 14:52, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

I'm not so sure that this should be a traffic director. It seems that we have too many individuals pages, and that a traffic director would only encourage creation of more individual pages. I think that we should consider merging all of the existing pages into the "How to cluster", providing a directory structure with an index on the front page. (The main How To page) Example:

• CZ:How To/Article Mechanics/Start an article
• CZ:How To/Article Mechanics/Implement subpages

Then

• CZ:How To/Mathematics/Insert Math Formulas

and

• CZ:How To/Technical/Create a template

etc. --Robert W King 15:05, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

I think the 'cluster' thing is good; it avoids having one ginormous page, but keeps all the pieces together. J. Noel Chiappa 16:37, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

I love this idea. Stephen Ewen 16:56, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

If no one has any objections, I'd like to expidite this, but I'll wait until anyone else wants to weigh in. --Robert W King 09:35, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Nah, everyone seems happy with it - ship it. J. Noel Chiappa 10:19, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Clustering sounds like a very sound idea to me. However, a large page is ok also if we include "Back to Top" links to easily get back to the TOC listing. David E. Volk 09:48, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

You don't think newcomers would find it intimidating? J. Noel Chiappa 10:19, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Back-to-top links are very user-friendly, and easy to create. Stephen Ewen 15:08, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Sorry, I wasn't clear; back-to-top links are always good. My comment was directed at the "a large page is ok also if" part. I was just concerned that a huge page would give people the feeling of 'oh, there's too much to learn before I can start contributing, I'll just bag it'. J. Noel Chiappa 16:10, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

We are badly in need of improving our help pages, and I don't want to discourage anyone who is motivated to make what really will be an improvement. But... :-) putting all the pages under one "How to" page might not be an improvement. I am skeptical only because there is no clear distinction between "how to" type pages and all other kinds of pages. In other words, I don't think there is a clear distinction between "help"-type pages and "policy"-type pages. Does this mean the idea must be nixed? Not necessarily! Just don't go off half-cocked, please. Before you make the big switcheroo, why not list all the pages that currently exist that you want to include under "how to."

In other words, before you start really massively fiddling with the structure of the community pages, make a more complete proposal about how it will all fit together. Right now the community (help/policy) pages are very far from perfect. But they do, at least, have a certain logic to them, if imperfect. What I'm worried about is that we'll just add more and more pages to what already exist, with some organized in one way, and others organized in another way.

If you really want to do this, please make a list of the main affected CZ: namespace pages (you can find them via CZ:Home and show how they will be mapped onto the "How to." Also, explain how it will fit into/affect the structure shown on CZ:Home. If it really does prove to be a significant change, it belongs on CZ:Proposals, and not on this CZ talk page.

The original page was probably much needed and probably should be moved to a separate page like CZ:Math and Chemistry Symbols, especially if this page becomes a big "traffic director" page.

I think a big "traffic direction" utility is a great idea. However, it really belongs on the FAQ. "How do I...?" is exactly the sort of question the FAQ is supposed to answer. If that's all we really need, then that's all we should add.

This whole thing would be perfect to add to CZ:Bold Moves, by the way. I will do so myself, I suppose.  :-) --Larry Sanger 14:31, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Your answer doesn't take into consideration the fact that right now a lot of information that the user might need is spread all over the wiki; like it was put into a bunker and detonated, raining down like fragments over a few hundred meters. This is an attempt to rectify that. One particularly glaring example: the left-hand navigation panel. --Robert W King 14:45, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

My answer does take that into consideration, Robert, of course. Please don't be so defensive. I am not defending the current system. I am trying to ensure that we do not simply make the current system worse. In other words, I didn't say "no," I said, "Good job! Please get on it! But please also make sure you do X, Y, Z." --Larry Sanger 15:04, 17 March 2008 (CDT)