User talk:Thomas Mandel

Tasks: start a new article • add basic, wanted or requested articles • add definitions • add metadata • edit new pages

Welcome to the Citizendium! We hope you will contribute boldly and well. Here are pointers for a quick start, and see Getting Started for other helpful "startup" links, our help system and CZ:Home for the top menu of community pages. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forum is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any user or the editors for help, too. Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and have fun!

-- Sarah Tuttle 18:16, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

Complementary

Thomas, we are looking -as a group- to make this a great on-line encyclopedia. We have fun, but it is serious fun. When I pointed out that the article DNA has been nominated for approval, and suggested that this was not the appropriate time for a novice to try his hand at editing something he didn't know much about, but that putting down questions and explaining what you might like to know that is not there , I meant in a scholarly fashion, such that your aim would be to try to help make that article of higher quality, not that this would be the appropriate place to muse or ask us to muse. Your question is a philosophical one that I have moved here, we are in a more directed mode in that article.We need to get it into shape and there really is no time for such tangential considerations. Speaking of time, I again had to revert one of your edits, because the protein coat of pneumococcus is a major factor in enabling the bacteria to infect organisms, and you wrote that it has no role in the infection.This is not helpful, please do ot make edits in an article nominated for approval in s areas you are not familiar with, we do not want to miss such a major mistake.

• In regards to Binary theory 'a la Salk, or pairs holding pairs- I answer 'a la Lennon: One and One and One Makes Three. :-)

In systems thinking, we would say that 1+1=3 If you count all the elements of the equation

I got your e-mail about approval for Systems theory. As Approvals Editor do not approve articles. An editor in a workgroup that your article falls into would have to nominate it for approval. At this time, it is a very broad article, I myself am not familiar with "Systems Theory". I see that it includes Systems biology and many other things, like education. Is this a recognized discipline? Could you give us a reference that recognizes "System theory" as a science that includes all the fields as you have presented it? Although your article has many references, they are not tied in with the text. Even if you can't do numbered footnote references (I can't, I admit) put them in parentheses and they can be formatted later. Put the workgroups that you think the article falls under in categories. Look at another article that has workgroups on its edit page to see how to write the code.This will help find the editors that can approve it and once you do, I will help you contact them. If however, the connection between all fields with the basic idea of systems is original, you may have a problem, and the article may have to be broken up into its respective recognized discilines. Nancy Sculerati 03:52, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

I got your e-mail about approval for Systems theory. As Approvals Editor do not approve articles.

I didn't mean to ask for approval, just wanted to know what it entailed.

An editor in a workgroup that your article falls into would have to nominate it for approval. At this time, it is a very broad article, I myself am not familiar with "Systems Theory". I see that it includes Systems biology and many other things, like education. Is this a recognized discipline?

May I suggest that you refer to my work at http://isss.org/projects/doku.php?id=wiki:primer and to answer your question

Could you give us a reference that recognizes "System theory" as a science that includes all the fields as you have presented it?

please see the article http://isss.org/projects/doku.php/wiki:general_orientations_of_systems_science

Interesting. Hi Thomas. I am a CZ Constable just checking out recent developments. I went to the article url above, was redirected to "general_orientation" and found a menu of conference dates but no articles per se. What should I be looking for relative to the article here under discussion? --Thomas Simmons 18:58, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

That website is under construction. What you are looking for is near the end of the home page - written by Kyoichi Kijima, ISSS President, 2006-2007. If you are serious about learning what we are about look at [1]Thomas Mandel 20:29, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Although your article has many references, they are not tied in with the text. Even if you can't do numbered footnote references (I can't, I admit) put them in parentheses and they can be formatted later.

Thank you for the tip

Put the workgroups that you think the article falls under in categories. Look at another article that has workgroups on its edit page to see how to write the code.This will help find the editors that can approve it and once you do, I will help you contact them.

I will do that when I think I am finished. Right now I just started a few days ago.

If however, the connection between all fields with the basic idea of systems is original, you may have a problem, and the article may have to be broken up into its respective recognized discilines.

No it is not original so that is not a problem. The problem is that many if not most scientists have not studied systems theory.

Systems theory is a field of inquiry concerning all disciplines which study how things work together (Original).

Thomas Mandel 13:11, 10 June 2007 (CDT) Nancy Sculerati 03:52, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Workgroups are uually put in at the atart or at least midpoint of an article. Are yoy referring me to the same private organization's website becasue there is no reference available from the recognized major peer reviewed journals in the English language in the scientific literature? Essays publihed on the web are not considered scholarly resources here, especially if they are the only or major references. At this point your article heavily promotes the ebsite that you contribute to and does not meet the scholarship required for an encyclopedic article. Please spend some time reading the requirements for citizendium articles. Nancy Sculerati 13:49, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

(Thomas Mandel's reply follows.)

Member Organizations of the International Federation for Systems Research (IFSR)

American society for Cybernetics

Asociation Argentins de Teria General de Sistemas y Cibernetica

Asociation Latinamericana de Sistemas

Asociation Mexicana de la Ciencias de Systemas

Asociation Mexicana de Systemas y Cibernetica

Association Francaise de Science des Systemes Cybernnetiques

Australian and New Zealand Systems Group

Bulgarian Society for Systems Research

Centre for Hypercursion and Anticipation in Ordered Systems

Cybernetics Society

Deutsche Gesellschaft fur Kybernetik

Gesellschaft fur Wirtschaft und Sozialkybernetik

Globl Institute of Flexible Systems

Greek Systems Society

Hellenic Society for System Studies

Institute Andino de Sistemas

International Society for the Systems Sciences

International Society of knowledge and System Science

Internatiohnal Systems Institute

Italian Association for Research on Systems

Japan association for Social and Economic Syst3em Studies

Korean Society for Systems Science Research

Learned Society of Praxiology

Management Science Society of Ireland

Polish Systems Society

Slovendian Society for Systems Research

Sociedad Espanola se Systemas Generales

Systems Enineering Society

Systemgroep Nederland

United Kingdom Systems Society

From Systems Research and Behavioral Science ISSN 1099-1743 Wiley Interscience

Hmmm, if it isn't made in America, does that mean it isn't science? I hope that I do not regret being honest with you. --Thomas Mandel

There are English language peer reviewed scientific articles in the major journals written by authoirs in all those countries. I do not have more time to spend here Thomas, the organizations are irrelevant to the requirement here on CZ to use scholarly resources unless these are unavailable. Your author message from Sarah includes a link on how to get started as an author, please read it and the links on policy that connect to it. Nancy Sculerati 15:36, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

I thought that the authors here would be friendly and helpful, but after a tremendous amount of work, which is only days old, I want to cry. Why? Do you have a peer reviewed journal article that proves only peer reviewed journal article are acceptable sources of information? Why do you presuppose that I made all this up? How can you judge an article about that which you are not familair with? How many peer reviewed journal articles are introductions for the general public? Why should I have to dig out information from approved journal articles when I can go right to the person who said it? And what is more impoortant, what is being said or who is saying it? Finally, how does one go about accessing these journal articles? PS In our science we are taught to "sweep in" as opposed to the conventional science approach of "exclude out." Could be we are manifesting the division between ingtegrative science and objectified science... If so, well, some sort of system put me here...ISSS is a grouop of hundreds of Phd's from various contries and who meet each year and present their findings to date. ISSS was SGSR, the original society from which the systems movement emerged as a science. I am the founder of their website, as well as the chair/facilator of the Primer Project. What do you mean by "I am promoting "? What I am promoting is the information which even you haven't heard of before. Surely you know of Rapaport?[2] I cited our journal, that's enough. Anyway. thanks for your time, I learned a lot. Thomas Mandel 17:25, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Why, because the article thoroughly bespeaks of self-promotion. It'd be nice to know what others besides advocates say, don't you think? Stephen Ewen 20:33, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Oh boy, I've been here less than a week and already I am in trouble...I think that if I wanted to know what someone was doing, I would ask those who are doing it what they are doing. I certainly wouldn't ask those who are unfamilair with what "someone is doing" for that insight.

I don't know what you mean by "self-promotion" can you be more specific?

You have this quote -- "habits of thought, reading, writing, and speaking which go beneath surface meaning, first impressions, dominant myths, official pronouncements, traditional cliches, received wisdom, and mere opinions, to understand the deep meaning, root causes, social context, ideology, and personal consequences of any action, event, object, process, organization, experience, text, subject matter, policy, mass media, or discourse."

Is it wrong to try and do that?

Not at all. That's the point. See the article talk page for more. Stephen Ewen 04:30, 11 June 2007

Thomas, I've restored some of Nancy Sculerati's comments above, to retain the integrity of the exchange. Please do not edit other people's talk page comments. --Larry Sanger 08:48, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks Larry, I only did that to stick to the real work. I made a huge mistake trying to butt in on something I know only a little about (DNA) Although they did keep my edits about complementarity.Thomas Mandel 20:29, 11 June 2007 (CDT)