Talk:U.S. Department of Defense

question...

These edits introduce some new information. But they remove some references that seem valid to me. And it removes some referenced material, without explanation.

I wonder whether a discussion of these changes is in order?

Cheers! George Swan 22:55, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

Discussion is always relevant!

First, as to the references, the two that were given appeared to be "explain the U.S. military to non-Americans", presumably issued by the London embassy. Now, as a recent Wikipedia refugee, I have the impression that there is slightly less emphasis on references here, at least in areas that would be well known in the field.

Let me assume references are appropriate on these descriptions of the Department of Defense. If they are, I'd prefer to some that are from more definitive sources, such as the Defense Department itself, or the U.S. laws authorizing the changes in government. Sometimes, the Wikipedia argument about secondary sources being preferred over primary sources baffle me, when the primary source -- such as a law or administrative directive -- is quite precise. In this case, I certainly can point to authoritative sources, such as the actual laws that established the Department of Defense. There are some nuances there; the National Security Act of 1947, usually said to establish the Department, actually did not.

That act created the Department of the Air Force, Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Council, and Joint Chiefs of Staff, but created a "National Military Establishment" where the three service secretaries were co-equal. It was 1949 amendments that formally created the Department of Defense and established the primacy of the Secretary of Defense. If we have references, I'd prefer them to be the actual authorizing text, perhaps with some analytical references, but not a general guide.

My changes did deemphasize the history of the War Department, which was deliberate. This is an article about the Defense Department, not its predecessors. I'm perfectly willing to write historical articles about the War and Navy Departments, perhaps with more detail about the changing role of the uniformed military and the Congress in their operation, but I dislike seeing too much historical background in the lead of an article or section about another subject. I'd like the first sentence or so to be about the Defense Department, not the War Department. There probably should be a hyperlink to articles about War and Navy.

It's not quite accurate that the Secretary of Defense is responsible for four armed services. First, there are three main armed services; there is no Department of the Marine Corps or Secretary of the Marine Corps in the Department of Defense organization. While the Commandant of the Marine Corps sits on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Marines are, organizationally, a part of the Navy. I felt that there was insufficient emphasis on the additional authority of the Secretary over the large civilian staff of the Department. Indeed, there might well be at least introductions to some of the significant organizations, under the Department of Defense but not part of a military service, such as the National Security Agency, Defense Information Systems Agency, Defense Threat Reduction Agency, etc.

As far as I can tell, the only material I deleted had to do with the history of the War Department. I also deleted what I considered non-authoritative references, partially substituting the National Security Act, and I'm perfectly willing to add both the Reorganization Act of 1949 and some of the Presidential orders and consultation with the Congress that it required.

Please let me know if I deleted any other significant material. Again, I'm new enough not to understand fully the editor-vs-author-vs-editor authoring, but I believe it would help if there was more agreement on the scope of this article. In particular, I believe there needs to be a discussion of the current structure of the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and of the major Defense organizations that are separate (loosely) from the military. When I say "loosely", the challenge is there are both administrative and operational lines of authority. Simplifying a bit, the Defense Information Systems Agency (formerly the Defense Communications Agency) is headed by a three-star military officer, who reports to (unless the name has changed recently) the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence (ASD/C3I). Simultaneously, the DISA director has the lead responsibility for global information warfare (among other functions), reporting to the Commander of the United States Strategic Command. The Director still reports to his own military service for his administration, assignmens, promotions (although this is usually the last job of a career).

Howard C. Berkowitz 07:57, 11 May 2008 (CDT)

I also contributed at the wikipedia. Thanks for your long reply. In retrospect you are absolutely correct that the main focus of the article should be about the Department, today. I knew the USMC Commandant sat on the JCS. I didn't know he or she answered to the Secretary of the Navy. The 1947 Act -- prior to it the Secretary of the Navy was a co-equal Cabinet member to the Secretary of War?

Cheers! George Swan 16:11, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

Correct; the Secretaries of War and Navy were co-equal feudal barons responsible government officials of Cabinet rank. Technically, the Commandant of the Marine Corps is only supposed to contribute to JCS discussions on "matters of concern to the Marine Corps", but, in practice, everything is of concern to the Marine Corps.

It wasn't until the 1949 Act when the Secretary of Defense gained clear authority over the co-equal Secretaries of the Army, Navy, and Air Force.

Things get even more confused with the Coast Guard, which can be under the operational authority of the Navy. In some cases when Coast Guard and Navy ships are operating together, and the senior officer afloat is Coast Guard, the Coast Guard officer has tactical control. While the Commandant of the Coast Guard doesn't sit on the JCS, it might become an interesting issue; the tradition is that the Vice Commandant steps up to four-star rank, and the current Commandant is a woman, which would presumably make her the first four-star officer more or less in the U.S. military

To utterly confuse things, there are two more uniformed services that wear a slightly modified Navy uniform but are not under the Defense Department (except when seconded there): the Public Health Service and the Commissioned Corps of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration.Howard C. Berkowitz 16:25, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

names

The department is named "Department of Defense" not the "United States Department of Defense." see Truman's statement on change of name in 1949. The long name will confuse readers, so I suggest we just use "U.S. Department of Defense." Likewise there is no "United States Secretary of Defense." It's just Secretary of Defense and I think there is no other such office with that title.Richard Jensen 01:31, 29 May 2008 (CDT)

Assume "Secretary of Defense" is the correct U.S. term. A problem of disambiguation then remains. Should it be, for example, "Secretary of Defense (United States)" and "Secretary of Defense (Philippines)"? My purely subjective sense is that I would rather be sure to respect the accomplishments of Ramon Magsaysay with a correct title, than, say, Robert McNamara or Louis Johnson.

If the rule is disambiguation, then how do the entries and redirects work? "Secretary of Defense" (unqualified) really would have to go to a disambiguation page. Redirect "U.S. Secretary of Defense" to "Secretary of Defense (United States)"? The latter could also be "Secretary of Defense (U.S.)", but that is somehow more jarring to my eye than "U.S. Secretary of Defense".

I don't have a simple answer. Indeed, as you mentioned in a forum, there are official and scholarly bodies such as (unless its name has changed) the Office of the Geographer at the (U.S.) "State Department". Under Anglo-American Cataloging Rules II, the original and authoritative cataloger of a book, as at the Library of Congress (where I worked for many years), there are "Naming Authority" rules. In principle, the authoritative name on a catalog card is the name that the author used in his or her first publication, which can get messy when a first publication is pseudonymous; there are practical ways to handle this with crossreferences in a catalog record, which is more flexible than a title.

Nevertheless, there is a difference between accepting something as authoritative, as recognized semi-official names (see, for example, the usually 4 names for a country in the CIA World Factbook), and popular usage ("u no, d00d"?). You make a good point that "us" is a word that confuses search engines. There are also cases with no good answer, such as the term to use, from 1900 to 2000, for the country whose capital was variously St. Petersburg and Moscow. Howard C. Berkowitz 06:55, 29 May 2008 (CDT)

So, should I move this to U.S. Department of Defense, or Department of Defense (United States), or what? J. Noel Chiappa 21:54, 30 May 2008 (CDT)

As long as there are appropriate redirects, I suppose [[Department of Defense (United States) makes the most sense. What strikes me as a more difficult problem, which may or may not have a CZ solution, of finding the function in a given country. A USAian, for example, may not know that Canada's equivalent is the Department of National Defence, while the U.K.'s is the Ministry of Defence, et cetera ad infinitum. I'd suggest a page, perhaps, for "National Military Establishments", except the "National Military Establishment" was the term for the initial unified U.S. organization. What about non-English speaking countries?Howard C. Berkowitz 22:00, 30 May 2008 (CDT)