Talk:Afghanistan War (2001-2021)

Thoughts on structure

I'd like to find a way to structure this so that the Phase I-III combat operations can be made an approvable article, while continuing to deal with the continuing security situation. Thoughts? Howard C. Berkowitz 22:00, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Is this right?

"the al-Qaeda senior leadership, who took responsibility for the attacks"

I don't remember any report to that effect at the time. Not until long after did we get a video of bin Laden claiming responsibility. On the contrary, the reason the Taliban were reported as giving for refusing to hand him over was that they'd been presented with no proof. Peter Jackson 09:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't give you references from memory, although check the al-Qaeda article. They do exist. To some extent, the Taliban argument was based on pashtunwali. Alternatively, the Taliban did not effectively participate in diplomatic processes, were recognized by only three nations (one revoked after 9/11). There was much more evidence than videos, and, to start with, the 1998 declaration of war by A-Q. The dance with the Taliban was a kabuki performance for public relations.

In any event, the 9/11 attack planning was done principally in Pakistan, not Afghanistan, admittedly in small cells. The leadership and training moved to Afghanistan for security, just as the Services Office had begun in Pakistan.

Let me add that the matter was not primarily being decided based on public announcements. There was hard intelligence data that some A-Q components were in Afghanistan. While the U.S. might have preferred a diplomatic solution, there was no question that military action was actively being prepared; it might have been avoided had the Taliban handed over A-Q but no one really expected that. Due to U.S. errors at the Battle of Tora Bora, most of the top A-Q leadership escaped to Pakistan toward the end of the main combat phase. Howard C. Berkowitz 13:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have to say I find this puzzling. Of course there's often a disconnect between "public announcements" and reality in politics. In extreme cases, dictatorships, like some Wikipedia editors, can make statements everyone can see are untrue. (A certain Iraqi Minister of Disinformation comes to mind.) But one can expect politicians, particularly in democracies, to act with a modicum of common sense and enlightened self-interest. If you want to persuade your population to support a war and the enemy has admitted this sort of thing, wouldn't you make a lot of it?

As I said, I don't remember anything of the sort. Instead I remember hearing that the FBI had been ordered to shelve all other cases and assign every single agent to this investigation, and that their report had been presented to NATO and unanimously accepted.

According to the detailed account in Wikipedia, bin Laden denied involvement, and a videotape of his admission was only found by US forces in Afghanistan. Of course WP isn't a reliable source (it says so itself so it must be true), but it agrees with my memory of news reports at the time. Peter Jackson 09:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I personally believe there were factions in the U.S. government that was less concerned with A-Q specifically and using it more as a casus belli for broader neoconservative actions. Indeed, there were arguments to hit Iraq first, even though there was very little evidence linking 9/11 and Iraq. "Neoconservative" is really inadequate to include some of the pure political posturing. While you find American politicians saying "they hate us for our freedom", there's an interview with bin Laden, who will never be mistaken for a stand-up comedian, observing "if I hate freedom so much, why don't I attack Sweden?"

The A-Q context is broader than Afghanistan. Their leadership declared war on the U.S. in 1998,[1] although they (or prior organizations) were increasingly associated with the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the embassy bombings in Africa, the USS Cole attack, etc. To look at the 9/11 planning specifically and even broader airliners as weapons, see Khalid Sheikh Mohammed#Airliner attacks.

Please be sure to read the al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden articles to set the larger context. This can't be discussed in pure terms of Afghanistan, any more than Afghan politics can be understood without understanding the complications of pashtunwali and the Durand Line, Pak-Indian relations and the role of Inter-Services Intelligence, and the history of the modern Taliban. Howard C. Berkowitz 10:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's another interesting point. The CZ article says "The operation was also authorized by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373." The WP article says, on the contrary, "The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) did not authorize the U.S.-led military campaign in Afghanistan (Operation Enduring Freedom)." Seems to be an outright contradiction. The text of the resolution, [2], seems to make no mention of Afghanistan. Looks to me like both articles are biased, in opposite directions. Peter Jackson 09:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)