Talk:Intelligent design

I've added an introduction to this subject. The corresponding Wikipedia page has been the cause of bitter disputes and allegations of heavy bias to the point that the article is now protected and can only be edited by regular wikipedians. If Citizendium is to succeed where Wikipedia has failed, I am guessing this will be an interesting test case.

Some suggestions as to why Wikipedia might have had so much trouble with this article:

• It quotes the opinions of individuals in order to make various points in a narrative style article. This is dangerous since almost anything anyone wants to say has been said by *someone* regarding ID, thus quoting those opinions can be a way of adding legitimacy to a personal argument about the issue. In other words, some of the opinons quoted may be prone to encouraging or entertaining the debate, rather than informing readers.
• The article errs on the side of conflating creationism and ID, however the article should try to elucidate the distinction between the two concepts.
• The article conflates the personal beliefs of many of the leading proponents and the actual statements that constitute the theory of intelligent design itself. In general there is a poor distinction in the article between the ID movement as a cultural phenomenon and intelligent design framed as a scientific argument.
• A number of quotations appear to be used to give the impression that something which is not factual, is true. For example the statement that no scientific evidence supporting ID has been published in peer reviewed literature is very carefully worded, but quite misleading. An important case of an article which passed peer review but was later rejected amidst accusations of editorial misconduct (which the editor denies), does not appear to be mentioned.
• Statistics are used rather wildly, for example a poorly constructed poll is admitted to evidence, and a statement about 70,000 scientists opposing ID is in fact really about a petition signed by only 9 people who may or may not hold the same views as the members they represent in their respective organisations (not to mention people possibly belonging to more than one of the organisations).
• The article often uses phrases such as, "it is claimed that" or "proponents say that" or "so and so argues that", which is often used in the article as a literary device for advancing one side of the debate against the other. Instead of presenting the facts, the article is presented as a dialogue between opponents and proponents of the theory (which of course just degenerates into such a debate on the talk page).
• The debate is entertained by the article rather than being reported in an unempassioned way from the outside of the issue.
• Many statements in the article would be highly offensive to one side of the debate or the other, prompting more aggravation on the talk page and in edit wars within the article itself.

In summary, I believe that the article is neither neutral, nor encyclopaedic. Of course what I've added to the page on Citizendium is certainly not the latter, and quite possibly not the former either. But every article needs a starting point. In fact I think I have erred on the side of casting ID in a bad light rather than simply reporting what it is. If people agree, perhaps even more could be culled from my intro. In particular, I may not have recognized various connotations of the wording which seem to promote one side of the debate over the other. I welcome any and all changes designed to make the article more neutral. Please be kind. I'm going with the "be bold" slogan of Citizendium. William Hart 09:06, 15 February 2007 (CST)

What is the difference between ID and creationism? I don't ask for my personal information ;-) but because the article should make this clear. Mainstream monotheistic belief has it that God is the creator and therefore virtually all mainstream believers are creationists. But obviously not all of them buy into ID. --Larry Sanger 09:10, 15 February 2007 (CST)

I think that is a good point and I agree, the article should reflect that. Also on the flip side, there are occasional agnostics who support ID. So my guess is that creationism and ID are quite different concepts. I think the main distinction is that ID does not require a *supernatural* designer. The wikipedia article tries to brush this distinction aside by making comments about how an alien race or some other kind of natural designer could not have designed the universe and that the fine tuning of constants, though under the general purview of ID theory, could not have been achieved by a natural designer. The wikipedia article also puts forward the argument that a designer would be so complex as to require an intelligent designer of its own. Since I don't wish to be making a case for either side of the debate here, I won't try to analyse these notions any further, but I think it suffices to say that those arguments look like they have been added to the wikipedia article by those wishing to debunk ID rather than to present an article which simply reports the facts. As a result they dismiss, rather than describe, the major distinction between ID and creationism.

In short, I think that ID is more about detecting design in nature and arguing for it from scientific considerations (e.g. from considerations arising from a study of microbiology) rather than trying to establish the nature of the intelligent designer. In that sense, ID most certainly cannot be characterised as an argument for the existence of God as the wikipedia article begins. In other words, ID theory has nothing to do with the statement "life on earth was created by an intelligent designer" and has much more to do with the statement "design can be *detected* in nature". This is possibly the reason many Christians object to it. Though they believe in a creator God, they perhaps don't believe that the specific considerations that intelligent design theory makes point to intelligent design. Nor do they think there is any reason to expect such considerations to lead to a proof of design. Other Christians object, as I understand it, because intelligent design doesn't go far enough, and identify the designer as God.

OK. I should be adding this to the article, not the talk page. But how to add it!? The specific wording is pretty important, so as to avoid the endless arguments which have accompanied the wikipedia version. William Hart 09:44, 15 February 2007 (CST)

In order to avoid the basking such as this topic often gives rise to, I suggest adding a chapter to the article giving righ to people with different views on the topic, but and I stress but, it may not become a religious talk else this should in totality be placed under religion as being one of its proponents. Robert Tito | Talk 11:37, 15 February 2007 (CST)

I agree, there should be a section on various views on the topic. Probably even before that there should be a section on the actual content of ID theory. At present the article is pretty woolly. But for the section on views: what views should be added? Many of the views represented in the wikipedia article seem to just be personal views of people contributing to the article often supported by articles in the popular press where journalists appear to have had the same thoughts. I think when one begins to enter the debate in this way, one loses objectivity. I'd much prefer to see a section listing the primary *scientific* objections to the concept with references to peer reviewed scientific articles or statements made in reputable scientific sources by scientists opposing the concept. One could also include the primary philosophical and religious objections too. But that is only possible if someone is very familiar with the peer reviewed literature. Just making up arguments and supposing that they must be the ones that theologians or philosophers have advanced against it and then trying to find a quote somewhere, anywhere, where someone has stated that point of view is going to make the article look quite non-authoritative in my opinion. I'm not particularly qualified to make *that* literature search, so I hope some other contributors will add that. William Hart 01:59, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Added in afterthought: the Pope would be such a qualified theologian who has made statements about the topic. BUT, this article is filed under science. Thus, as you suggest Robert, a religious discussion such as this, should not be included in the article, but rather linked to as one of the proponents/opponents of the theory (actually, having read a little of what the Pope has said on the issue, I'm still not sure of what his formal opinion really is). I see now what you are saying, and I agree! This article should include only statements from the scientific community with a short additional section reflecting the other (non-science) opinions that are out there, linking to appropriate articles about such people/ideas.

Some things that could be added to the article on the science side:

• Something about Werner Gitt's writings and his response to ID.
• Something about Paul Davies' writings.
• Stephen J Gould's opinion.
• Simon Conway Morris' opinion.
• Dembski's explanatory filter.
• Behe's Irreducible Complexity argument (there's a hint in the WP article that this has been refuted in the scientific literature and that even Behe has backed away from it. But there are so few actual details given that one is hard pressed to see clearly what has happened to this argument. I'd like to see the issue properly exposed if there is something to say.)
• Dembski's specified complexity and universal probability bound.
• Guillermo Gonzales' (?) fine tuned universe.
• The no free lunch theorem and Dembski's evolutionary search spaces and pairwise competitive functions.
• The opinions of Hubert Yockey, Robert Sauer, Peter Rüst, Paul Erbrich, Siegfried Scherer, and Douglas Axe

I can't think of any more for now, but there are many important things that should be mentioned on both sides of the scientific debate. William Hart 01:59, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Good luck. I'd strongly agree that, having made the distinction between ID and creationism, the article should steer clear of religious issues as best it can, and especially avoid the insidious practice of disparaging opinions by implying that they reflect religious (ie presumed irrational beliefs). Personally I think the article needs to begin with a clear and simple account of the case for ID, and perhaps Paley's watchmaker analogy is a good and classic way to begin? I am really nervous about arguments from authority, i.e. to the effect that this is rubbish because all sensible people (or all very clever people) think its rubbish. I think it must be an objective to explain the reasoning behind people's views, and then sensible people can make their own minds up. Gareth Leng 05:20, 16 February 2007 (CST)