Talk:Baseball

Potential images for future placement

• Good shot of the whole field at Yankee Stadium
• Picturesque field in New Mexico, looks minor league
• A baseball
• another baseball
• a baseball bat
• baseball glove w/ball
• Batter hitting the ball
• Pitcher/Batter shot
• Another pitching shot

The Library of Congress has a ton of photos of early 1900's baseball, with no known restrictions here. --Todd Coles 19:57, 2 February 2008 (CST)

We do not sign our names in article space.

Robert, please don't revert my edit. We do not sign our names in main article space - that is saved for signing comments on talk pages. I'll be reverting it back. Thanks. --Todd Coles 22:22, 12 February 2008 (CST)

I'm sorry Todd if I stepped on your toes. I do however think the baseball page needs serious revision and I would love to work with you on this. The reason for my edit earlier was I thought you were claiming the page as your own (since you made no additional contribution adding or retracting from my comments, which if its a misunderstanding or attributed to my newbie staus, I apologize). So can we coordinate our efforts here? I would like to make the baseball page "official". I've done quite a bit of reading, research, and writing that I think I can make a significant contribution.

Robert

Robert, you are making great contributions to this article, which is great. But I think you also need to better familiarize yourself with how a wiki works. I've reviewed the edit history and I don't see anything Todd has done that could even be remotely construed as "claiming the page" for his own. You did, by signing your name at the top, which is never done. And by the way, please sign your posts here, on the Talk page, by hitting the tilde key four times. Shawn Goldwater 00:03, 13 February 2008 (CST)

Robert, please do continue to work on this article. The contributions you made are great. Plus, if I tried to claim the page as my own I think people would run me out of town. :) I am guessing what probably happened, is you accidentally hit the signature button, and didn't realize it signed your name at the top of the article - that's the only thing I was trying to clean up. I apologize if I came off harsh, you aren't stepping on anyones toes. And, like Shawn said, if you hit ~~~~ at the end of your posts on a talk page, it will sign our name and timestamp it. There is also a button you can hit above the edit window that will do the same. Don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions, and welcome to CZ. --Todd Coles 07:21, 13 February 2008 (CST)

hi Todd- thanks for your encouragement and understanding about my mistakes. I assure you that I intend to contribute more to the article but would like to know where my contribution would be best served. In other words, what do we need to do to get this "official"? Obviously this is a broad catagory but some things are more important than others. Any thoughts? Robert C. Starkins 02:27, 19 February 2008 (CST)

In my opinion, the two most critical sections of this should deal with 1) the history of the game, giving attention not only to the American game, but on the world stage as well and 2) the rules and gameplay. I, of course, can't give any definitive answer on what it will take to get it approved, since I'm not an editor.

I have been thinking about what to do with the terminology section. I think it will be helpful to someone who is completely unfamiliar with baseball in their understanding of the article, but I'm not sure it fits in right where it is. Maybe move it to a catalog subpage, I'm thinking. --Todd Coles 11:48, 19 February 2008 (CST)

Stats, the use of

Stat guru Bill James once wrote (disgustedly) that people frequently asked him what was the most "interesting" statistic he had ever encountered. That, he said, is like asking a carpenter what his most interesting tool was. Stats are merely tools to be used to study and analyze various aspects of performance and to develop new insights thereby. (Bill and I are both members of SABR, the Society for American Baseball Research.) Hayford Peirce 20:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I hoped you might show up, Hayford, bem vindo. Watching some on the television last night, I was trying to make sense of it. This article isn't as bad as I feared it might be...but what is a home run exactly? 'This results in the current batter and all runners on base being allowed to score a run with no interference from the other team.' They just stand out of the way, and say, please go ahead? No, I think it is an automatic prize, like a four or 6 in cricket... Ro Thorpe 20:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it is akin to, I believe, a 6 in cricket. When a baseball player hits the ball entirely out of the playing area, generally into the grandstands furthest away from him, or over the fence that surrounds the playing field (once again, in the areas furthest from where he is standing), he then runs to his right (or swaggers these days) to first base, steps on it, makes a left turn, goes to second base, steps on it, makes another left turn, goes to third base and steps on it, makes a final left turn and runs down to the place where he originally stood while trying to strike the ball. When he steps on "home plate", he thereby creates a "run", or score of 1. If a teammate had been on any of the three bases when he struck his home run, the teammate would have scored ahead of him and together they would have accounted for 2 runs. Two men on base would have meant 3 runs, and men on all three bases would mean 4 runs, a rather unusual happening. A hundred years ago, when the ball being used was dirty, misshapened, and never replaced, and the playing strategies were different, a typical game might end up with a score of 3-2 or 2-1. With Babe Ruth in 1920 and the advent of the frequent home run, scores rapidly mounted and a very good-hitting team in today's world will probably score around 850 runs in the course of a 162-game season, an average of about 5.2 runs per game. A second-rate team will probably average about 4, or even less, runs per game. Ralph Kiner, a celebrated home-run hitter in the late 1940s, who was frequently criticized for being able to do very little *except* hit home runs, remarked, "Home run hitters drive Cadillacs, singles hitters drive Chevrolets." In a day when the minimum salary was $6,000 and a *good* salary was $20,000, Ralph was pulling down around $80,000 per year. He also married a beautiful tennis player named Nancy Chaffee (I think) and lived happily ever after. He is still alive and known, like Yogi Berra for his malapropisms. Hayford Peirce 21:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It really is like the rounders we played in primary school, except that I think there were more bases... But a home run is what? "...hits the ball entirely out of the playing area, generally into the grandstands furthest away from him, or over the fence that surrounds the playing field (once again, in the areas furthest from where he is standing), he then runs to his right (or swaggers these days) to first base, steps on it..." - so there is nothing automatic about it? You don't have to shake yer body (or swagger it) when you hit a 4 or a 6 - you just stand there & receive the applause; or, if you've been running, and the ball reaches the boundary, you just stop, and your movement counts for nothing extra (except that the batsmen may have changed ends...). Do you have to run for a home run? Ro Thorpe 21:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You have to run in the sense that, yes, you do have to physically round the three other bases and return to home plate. And you have to *touch* each base with your foot -- occasionally someone will hit a home run and then find it nullified and his turn at batting over because he missed one of the bases. And if he runs too fast and passes one of his teammates already on base, then he is also out and his score negated. In the *old* days, when men were men and wimmin were sluts, players who hit home runs actually *ran* around the bases. Now they generally swagger and saunter. In the old days, had they done that, the next time they came to bat, a very hard, very fast baseball would have been directed at their head by the pitcher. Also, an *extremely* rare home run occurs when the batter hits the ball to, usually, the very deepest part of the playing field, but still within the boundaries, and then *really* runs around the bases, arriving back at home player before the fielders can gather up the ball he has struck and thrown it to home plate ahead of his arrival. In the old days, with *enormous* parks, and dead balls that were almost impossible to hit over the fences, this so-called "inside the park home run" was quite a bit more common than today. In 1910, say, the leading home run hitter of the year might have hit 9 altogether, of which 4 or 5 would be the inside the park variety. Ruth revolutionized the game in 1920 by hitting the unheard amount of 59 in a single year, more than all but *one* of the other 15 ball teams had for the entire team. He was pretty fast for a big man and might have had a couple of inside the park ones that year, but today it is only the extreme speedsters who do this, and probably not more than once or twice a year. Hayford Peirce 21:40, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very clear. The outside the park variety is a kind of procession really, as the ball is out of play, but it's still a physical requirement, right? Ro Thorpe 22:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That's it exactly, a kind of ceremony, but one that nevertheless requires certain standards to be met. (In these degenerate times, a player will sometimes hit a long fly ball and then, instead of hustling down to first base as he would have even 20 years ago, will stand and admire his "home run". Only to see it hit the fence, bounce back onto the playing field and be retrieved by a fielder, who will then hold him to a mere single or double. Or even, occasionally, throw him out before he can even get to first base. Players like this used to be called "hot dogs", who were "hot dogging it." There's probably some other name for them now.) Hayford Peirce 22:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Basic explanations missing

This article needs a simple introduction into the basic principles of the game. (Coming from central Europe I may be excused to say so ... ) When I was in Toronto I saw a game and a friend answered my the question, so I can read and follow the explanations of the terminology section and the rules. However, I doubt that -- without my advance knowledge -- I would comprehend what the game is about. Peter Schmitt 22:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone should probably pop over to WP, steal a couple of key paragraphs, paste them in here, then put them in to real English. Hayford Peirce 22:53, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

WP is out of commission at the moment. Anyway, Hayford, that's a good idea, and your further explanations are making sense...

Must be hard for Peter though. Read the cricket (sport) article? Just as incomprehensible? Ro Thorpe 23:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I could try to explain it from my rudimentary knowledge? This (perhaps) could help those who really understand the game to see what is missing. ??? Peter Schmitt 00:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Ro Thorpe 00:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The same concern for the explanation of the basics of the game applies to the Softball article (Softball#The basics of a softball game). Would someone be so kind as to go there and read that section and offer a critique (preferably on the Softball talk page)? That is: does it say what is needed. It really is difficult to write such a description without feedback from someone who is perhpas not so familiar with the game. James F. Perry 02:55, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I have inserted a paragraph which tries to explain the basics, as I understand them. It probably needs correction. Peter Schmitt 23:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Quoting Peter's addition: 'He makes a mistake if he attempts to hit an incorrectly thrown ball (a strike)' - Or if he fails to hit a correctly thrown ball? Or both? Ro Thorpe 23:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

The above is so incorrect that I suggest it simply be deleted and wait for someone else to come along and rewrite it from scratch. I really think that while you may be bringing in outside points of view here, which is a virtue in trying to explain the inexplicable to non-believers, it might be easier for everyone to simply copy bits and pieces from WP and THEN, if you don't understand what the WP people are saying, query it and I'll try to make the copy clearer. But I don't want get involved in completely writing the BB article from scratch.... Hayford Peirce 23:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

...Or if he doesn't attempt to hit a correctly thrown ball?... Ro Thorpe 00:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Questions on rules

How are batters, pitchers and catchers determined.

The manager of each team decides, at least for each particular game. Many, many business people are involved in deciding which young players to bring up to the major leagues and where they should play. A whole section in itself. Hayford Peirce 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I simply meant how -- during a game -- the sequence is determined. Is it fixed between innings? Peter Schmitt 00:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Just before the game starts, the manager of each team gives the home plate ump the "lineup", the official list of the nine players who will start the game, in which position, and in which order they will bat. During the game players can be replaced, players can be moved from one position to another (v. seldom done), but the batting order canNOT be changed. If Bob Smith is batting fifth but is replaced by Tim Jones, Jones will then have to bat fifth for the rest of the game. And Smith cannot return to the game. Hayford Peirce 01:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Which players distributed in the field (how)?

It's an arrangement that has grown up over the years. Tradition guided by experience. Hayford Peirce 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

That is: no rules - just tactics. Peter Schmitt 00:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Essentially, yes. Except there are rules about the placement of the pitcher on "the pitcher's mound" and, I suppose, about the catcher. And I don't believe that any of the other players are allowed to station themselves in "foul territory." They can run *into* foul territory to chase a ball that has been hit or thrown there, but their initial position is always in "fair territory." Hayford Peirce 01:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

What happens if the pitcher makes mistakes?

If they lead to getting his team in trouble, ie, behind the other team, or in danger or falling behind, he is relieved by another pitcher and "is sent to the showers." Ie, he goes to the clubhouse and takes a shower and cannot return to the game -- whenever a player is removed from the game, for whatever reason, he cannot return during that same game. Hayford Peirce 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

But there is no rule that he has to go after (say) three mistakes? Peter Schmitt 00:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

No, no rule. And the word "mistake" is never used except in the sense of the pitcher telling a reporter after the game, "I made a terrible mistake in the third inning -- I threw Ro Thorp a fastball right down the middle (of the plate) instead of a curveball on the outside corner and the @#$%^&* hit it sixteen miles over the fence." There are no statutory rules for replacing players, such as the five-foul rule in basketball (or whatever it is). But the umpires can eject players for unsportsmanlike conduct, such as calling the ump a @#$%^&* or throwing at the head of the batter. Hayford Peirce 01:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Can the third batter only make a run if it is a home run?

Not at all, he can score a run in any number of ways, just like all the other batters. Hayford Peirce 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I misinterpreted the three out as "only three batters per inning".Peter Schmitt 00:45, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Each team continues to bat until it has made three outs. It's quite possible for a team to score 15 or more runs in a single inning (although extremely rare), in which case each player would probably have batted at least twice. I heard a game on the radio many years ago in which a couple of players came to bat three times in a single inning. Hayford Peirce 01:06, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

A diagram of the field would be very useful.

Surely there is a public domain one somewhere. Hayford Peirce 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I hope my explanations of rules (so far) are correct. Peter Schmitt 23:15, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I will, hehe, preserve a discreet silence as to that.... Hayford Peirce 00:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

comments by Peter Schmitt 00:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

So I should probably be out :-) Peter Schmitt 00:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Three strikes & you're out, said a politician of the recent past (Judy Ruliani?). But here we have 'three outs'. Some lexical clarification, please, Mr Baseman, sir. Ro Thorpe 01:29, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Two separate, but connected, things. An "inning", actually one-*half* of an inning, continues until the team at bat has made three outs in various ways. One way in which an "out" is achieved by the other team, or incurred by the team at bat, is for the batter to "strike out" or to be "struck out". If he fails to hit a proper pitch three times, that means that he has incurred three strikes. And three strikes on a single batter are the direct equivalent to ONE out. An extreme, but not exceptionally rare, example: the fire-balling pitcher from Liston, Rheaux Thorpe, the illegitimate great-grandson of Jim Thorp, faces the minimum of three batters in the first inning by throwing each of them three strikes, simply blowing his pitches past them so fast that they either can't remove the bat from their shoulder to swing or they swing and can't hit his blinding fast stuff. Each batter "strikes out" on three pitches. After the third batter is out (or "has been retired"), that half of the inning is over and the other team leaves the field and takes its turn to bat. Hayford Peirce 02:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

After a long period of study, I think I've got that. Three batters have been removed, or retired, because each were thrice bamboozled by this illegitimate guy, right? Ro Thorpe 19:51, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The first three batters of the Manassa Maulers, Bob Smith, Bill Jones, and Jim Green were all "retired" by the pitcher Rheaux Thorp, who threw them nothing but strikes. Bob and Bill each swung three times and were unable to even touch the ball. Each one of them, therefore was "out". The third batter, Jim Green, didn't even bother to swing at the pitches because they were so fast that he could barely see them. Each of those three pitches, however, was called a "strike" by the home plate umpire, who leans over the catcher's shoulder, because, *in his judgment* each of the pitches was in the so-called "strike zone" of that particular batter. The strike zone varies slightly from ump to ump, because they are, after all, trying to follow 100-mph pitches that also curve and dip. And they make mistakes. But the theory is that the "strike zone" is that area directly ABOVE the plate and between the bottom of the batter's armpits and the top of his knees. In order words, like a large "sweet spot" on a tennis racket. For a very *tall* batter, his strike zone will be larger than that for a very *short* batter. One reason, perhaps, that Michael Jordan couldn't make the transition to baseball -- he had a *very* large strike zone to defend. En somme, any pitch that goes through the "strike zone" is, if not hit by the batter, a strike. And "three strikes and yer out!" Hayford Peirce 20:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Your use of the expression "strike zone" enabled me to find again the picture in WP which looks rather like the batter is defending an elaborate 3-dimensional wicket, and it does help to think of it in that way, even though it is actually his body & there is no object a few feet behind. The bit about the umpire's judgment, too, reminds me of the lbw rule in cricket. But, to clarify: if the batter, as in the case of Smith & Jones in your example, swings at the ball & misses, the ball doesn't have to be in the strike zone to count as a strike? Ro Thorpe 22:04, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

That's a good pic at WP of the strike zone, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_zone. What they don't say is this: if the plate is 17-inches wide (I think), the *real* strike zone is about 21 inches wide, because it is, usually in the judgment of the ump, a strike if an *edge* of the pitched ball hits just an *edge* of the plate, thereby making it a couple of inches wider in each direction. PLUS, the most important part, the *really* good pitchers, the ones who win 300 games in the course of a 20 or 25-year career, are the ones who can, time after time, throw the ball *just* on the edges of the strike zone, and even an inch or so outside but close enough so that the batter, desperate, swings at these pitches that probably aren't strikes in the first place. The more the pitcher can expand the strike zone, the more successful he is going to be. Almost *any* major league batter can hit a pure fast ball, even at 100 MPH, when it's thrown down the middle of the plate. It's when the pitcher teases him with a couple of fast balls that are just *off* the plate, then throws him a 75-MPH *curveball* that looks as it's going to be outside the plate, then swerves across a corner of it at the last moment, that the batter is confounded. Or, also with a curveball that looks as if it *will* be over the plate, but then curves *away* from it at the last moment.

And, no, the ball does *not* have to be in the strike zone if the batter swings at it and misses -- it's a strike no matter where it is. (Although I believe that if the ball first hits the ground in front of the plate and then bounces across the plate, it is a "ball", whether the batter swings at it or not. I could be wrong here.) The ineffable Yogi Berra, he of the many Yogi-isms, was a celebrated "bad-ball hitter" -- he would swing at *anything* -- many years ago, when I was a lad, and Yogi was my favorite player, I saw him win a game in Boston against the Red Sox by hitting a late-inning home run on a pitch that was up around his face. What was also remarkable about Yogi was the fact that in spite of swinging at a lot of stuff that was way out of the strike zone, he almost *never* struck out -- a really remarkable player.... Hayford Peirce 22:48, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Right, that's the picture I was referring to. '...a "ball", whether the batter swings at it or not' - "ball" synonymous with strike here? I think I've seen the word used in that sort of way elsewhere, here or in WP, I don't know. Ro Thorpe 00:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC) - Ah, I see from what Peter has just added, a 'ball' is an incorrect pitch?

Yes, the pitcher throws an actual physical "ball" or "baseball" or "the old horsehide" or a "pitch", and when he throws it the result is either a "ball" or a "strike", a "ball" being a pitch outside the strike zone that the batter has not swung at. It is, in a sense, a mistake, but not, all by itself, a very grave one, depending on the circumstances. There is *one* exception to a pitch *always* being either a "ball" or a "strike" -- if a batter has two strikes against him and he hits a pitch into foul territory (or into the stands) and it is *NOT* caught by a member of the opposing team, it is a null pitch in the sense that it is not counted as either a ball or a strike. There have been players over the years, with tremendous bat control, who, with two strikes against them, would "foul off" dozens of pitches -- thereby tiring the pitcher; perhaps inducing the pitcher to throw additional "balls" to him so that he eventually reached first base safely by means of a "walk" (receiving four "balls"); or, by fouling off pitch after pitch, he eventually receives a nice fat one right down the middle that he wallops for a hit. Guys who could/can do this are Kenny Rosewall types, not Pancho Gonzales.... Hayford Peirce 00:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

A walk -- I knew there was something about three (well, it is four) balls ...

... and, Ro, I thought you know the game :-)

Peter Schmitt 00:33, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine what gave you that idea. I'm an ignorant Englisch Dummkopf. But to summarise: a strike is when the ball is in the zone & the batter misses, or doesn't swing, a run is when the batter hits and, well..., and a ball is when the pitcher fails to make the zone but the batter didn't hit it anyway. And there is one exception...but let's not get ahead of myself. Ro Thorpe 00:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You encouraged me -- so I expected you to correct my mistakes ... Peter Schmitt 01:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I encouraged you because I thought you might make some progress, and you seem to be doing pretty well, but more I shall not say pending the return of the Baseman. Ro Thorpe 01:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Right, but what if 'he hits a pitch into foul territory (or into the stands) and it is *NOT* caught by a member of the opposing team' - but there are not 2 strikes against him? (I fear this extra question is showing up depths of incomprehension.) Ro Thorpe 01:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC) - I see you have sneaked in another bit while I was writing, Peter, to the effect that it would be a foul ball & count as a strike, which is very nice, because it MAKES SENSE! Ro Thorpe 01:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC) - the logic being that the pitcher has to <earn> the strike-out (right term?) with an unhittable ball?

Yes! The first two times that a batter hits a foul ball (one that isn't caught) *those* foul balls count as strikes. After that he has to *miss* the ball entirely for it to be called a strike. In which case he is out.

But don't forget: each team has 27 outs in a game (three outs per nine innings) -- a very, *very* good pitcher might strike out *10* batters in a game. So that although balls, strikes, and stikeouts are important, *most* outs in the course of a game come from other means. Hayford Peirce 01:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

lede paragraph

I'm sorry, people, but with all the good will in the world, the lede paragraph is absolute gibberish. Some of it is meaningful IF you really understand baseball and can figure out what is *trying* to be said, but if you showed this paragraph to an average guy in the Bronx or Brooklyn and asked him to comment, he would say, "Whaddya mean by dis?"

I don't think it is possible for someone foreign to the culture of baseball to try to write an article about it. Not unless he/she has half a dozen people like me around into order to spend an hour deleting and rewriting what the original person wrote in 10 minutes. And I myself, at least, am just not going to do it. There's a perfectly adequate article at WP that, obviously, needs to be rewritten so that it is directed towards adults rather than children, but until we have a committed cadre of real baseball fans to do this article, then I think that this one should be abandoned. In fact, it is now, I think, a major embarrassment-- here we have what is, in many ways, an American encycl. and its article about the American "national pastime" is a laughter....

I certainly don't want to hurt any feelings about this, and I do appreciate the work that has gone into it, but I really think that, for the moment, it ought to go into Cold Storage.... Hayford Peirce 05:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Having slept on it, I wonder if there isn't some other way of labeling this article, so that it can continue to be written as an alternative to the WP-sort of article? Baseball for the non-initiated, Baseball for the non-American (Japanese, Latino, etc.), Baseball for Europeans, etc., so that it *is* written in a way that drives me bonkers but that *does* convey real information to, say, an Albanian, who has no concept of what *any* of the terms mean -- that's my problem, and the problem of any other American who looks at what is being written here -- we're too close to the subject and can't see it as others do.... Hayford Peirce 14:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)