Talk:Lao Tse

Questions/comments:

• What really is the most common spelling of this name in English? We should use that for the title. I'm not sure it is "Laozi."
• "or perhaps even she" -- does anyone think that Lao Tse was, or even could have been, a woman? I'm skeptical.
• "Various reports have him living somewhere between the 2nd and 6th century BC" -- we can't do better than that?
• "Lao Zi is believed by some to have been a contemporary of Confucius (551-479 BC), and by others to be a teacher of Confucius." - Again, some sources here would be helpful. Saying "some believe X, others believe Y" does not help anyone to evaluate the merits of X and Y. To do that, we need to know who says X and Y, and why, and whether their opinions hold any weight among those who know about the subject.
• "...but one popular account goes something like this..." There is no reason for what follows to be in bold and italics, right? Or even inset, or in quotation marks? That isn't actually a quotation, is it? If not, make it part of the text. (If anyone has ever actually said that.
• "Some accounts of the story have Lao Tsu traveling to India upon his departure and becoming known as Buddha" -- something that interesting and dramatic needs more explanation and also a better source than some website.

--Larry Sanger 13:43, 18 January 2008 (CST)

Larry: I started addressing some of your concerns without even having read this post. I will continue to clean this up. Blessings... --Michael J. Formica 14:30, 18 January 2008 (CST)

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Larry: The spelling of Laozi was taken directly from Philosophy, although I'm not sure who added it to that particular article.

Michael: The deleted Buddha reference can stay "excised" if you like, however "some website" is not the only place I have seen it mentioned. I don't personally believe it either, I just thought it was worth mentioning that some folks (usually Taoists) sometimes make this claim.

All: I will of course be happy to abide by the standard format for quotations and paraphrasing, I just don't know what they are. Perhaps I'll spend some time to read about them soon. Since I ripped this directly from my "Tao Te Ching" article, which was one of my first, I seem to recall the formatting was pretty much seat-of-the-pants style.

I do have to say that I'm dissapointed that there seems to be more interest in the spelling of the guy's name than the teaching.

Ch 18 of the Tao Te Ching ...knowledge and wisdom are born along with hypocrisy.... -Translation by Merel

Ch 65 The ancient Masters didn’t try to educate the people, but kindly taught them to not know. When they think that they know the answers, people are difficult to guide. When they know that they don’t know, people can find their own way. -Mitchell

Also, I noticed we have yet to begin an entry for respect. Perhaps someone will be able to assist with that one as well.--David Yamakuchi 16:52, 18 January 2008 (CST)

David: I think your additions and corrections are great. With regards the spelling, I am taking my cue from my teachers' notes...he's a Pure Heaven Taoist priest, but he is also a Han educated by Mandarins and speaks/writes about 12 dialects...go know. It would be an interesting excercise to ferret out which spelling comes from where...it's clear we are wrestling with Han, Mandarin, Wade-Giles...blah, blah, blah...

I deleted the Buddha reference because I could find no point of reference for it. Gautama Siddhartha was a historical figure whose lineage is documentable. Although the idea that Lao Tse traveled to India and became the Buddha is a reasonable mythos, I thought it too easily discredited to be put out there as a statement of fact. Maybe we can spin it?

As for your comment on respect, well, and I quote: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." There was no disrepect intended. You get a bunch smart folks in a room and we are all going to fight for the Alpha spot. There was no disrepsect intended. Rest easy, knowing that your efforts are appreciated, and your presence most welcome. Blessings... --Michael J. Formica 19:53, 18 January 2008 (CST)

Michael: Thanks for _your_ additions and corrections as well. It's clear that your knowledge and credentials on the subject are to be respected ;-) And since I find myself on the subject again, I will (hopefully) conclude the matter with a quote from my favorite translation:

Ch 48 In the pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added. In the practice of the Tao, every day something is dropped... -Mitchell

Consider it dropped.--David Yamakuchi 20:19, 18 January 2008 (CST)

Calls for citations...

David: Just a heads up. I removed your citation needed template from the Lao Tse article. Larry is vehemently against ever using that or the fact template that you see at Wikipedia. This is based partly on the presumption that since we are vetted experts in our various fields, we know what we're talking about. I created one early on and it was summarily deleted within minutes, with a reprimand from several other editors...that's why you couldn't find it here.

As for that reference, it'll show up. I am compulsive about referencing, and you will rarely see me write something for which I cannot find some source. Blessings... --Michael J. Formica 06:38, 19 January 2008 (CST)

Michael: I did see the lack of a citation needed here, and I've never actually used one before _but_, the statement you made that Lao Tse was born in 604 B.C. is not really verifiable. While I will agree that you'll be able to find some references that says this is true, I will be able to find just as many references that say this is not. If you read the Stanford reference (and you might want to pack a lunnch for that BTW), you will find that there are more than one account of things.

Now, in terms of being vetted experts, and with all due respect to Mr. Sanger, my original entry was poo-poohed (sp?) for being a little wishy-washy in terms of the dates. I believe I said something like 600-200B.C., to which Larry responded "can't we do better?" The simple answer as I see it is NO! If we can't even be sure that the person existed, and there are conflicting accounts of the "real" history, my opinion is that is encumbent upon us as "experts" to present all sides of the story...which is at this point uncertain.

You sir, have stated as a fact something that was originally in the article as debated, _and_ removed my data that represents years of research on the subject. I am dissapointed. I will also point out that even though the data was immediately questioned by the Editor-In-Chief himself, it was not removed. We can't just go deleting things we don't like in articles. Consider the Holocaust entry, eh? The Talk page is used for that, and when that fails the Constables, I'm told, will be more than happy to assist.

That said, I am absolutely _not_ an expert on anything...except maybe my own experiences which I am attempting to selectively share so that we can all benefit from them. But what I can say with ceretainty is that (and since I believe _you_ were the one that added this article to the Religion workgroup, I'm sure you can understand) people can get kinda funny when you start misrepresenting their religion. Lao Tse is revered by many, and dismissed by many others. It's important that we try to consider everyone's opinion here, and not just the opinion that was taught at one particular school.--David Yamakuchi 11:44, 19 January 2008 (CST)