Talk:Unidentified flying object

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Constable comment

As this is obviously a contoversial subject, I need everyone to pay attention to our rules of CZ:Professionalism and make sure to refrain from remarks that will be percieved as {{civil}} and {{inflammatory}}. And, please {{no complaints}} about others. Do understand that these rules apply to everyone equally, including editors and officials. I encourage authors to cooperate with the gentle guidance of Editors. Editors, I encourage you to be gentle. I will not be editing this article or involving myself in any of the disputes and will remain as neutral as humanly possible in performing this constable duty. D. Matt Innis 12:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Gentleness is a scarce resource after repeated reverts, unexplained deletions, incorrect revision of citations, and decidedly non-neutral writing on what we now learn, from Milt's talk page, is "ufology". Howard C. Berkowitz 00:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Not Defending Ufology. I am defending the tolerance of accepted facts. Facts are facts. You can not ignore them. At one time people believed the Earth was flat, and some people still do, but most people now accept the fact the Earth is round. It was proven to be fact and we all accept it as fact. At one time Galileo proposed theories that the Catholic Church found the earth heretical. Later his facts proved to be correct and we accept it as fact. I presented a fair, objective article based on facts. The facts were supported with footnotes. I even provided a link for you to read. When last checked CUFOS articles meet a high standard of scientific research. Authors are typically doctorate level and the jury panel is probably of the same caliber. If you like, you can email or call them to confirm what I wrote since you are so eager to establish facts. I wonder if other authors have had to meet such a high standard of writing caliber here at Citizendium.

Also, I am not sure where you managed to drag up WP in this discussion. None of the stuff I have used even used WP (and I presume you mean Wikipedia) in this discussion.

As far as Wikipedia is concerned I have written one article for them.

Finally, I apologize for using shorthand for CZ. I guess I should have written Citizendium. OK Citizendium Guide. I thought CZ was the appropriate shorthand here. I apologize for my innocent error.

I've tried hard to be friendly, collaborative and cooperative. I am the new kid on the block and I know it. It sure would have been nice to have had a little help instead of out running road blocks and criticism.

Where I have written at wikiHow (yes the spelling is correct) the environment is far more encouraging of new authors. We go out of our way to send personalized welcome messages, offer assistance with writing, and respect someone who is actively writing an article. We also allow new authors to write and then we gently edit. I have gently edited over 5,000 articles based on my writing skills and understanding of wiki syntax. I came to Citizendium to stretch my wings a bit and exercise my mind. I love writing how-to articles, but I also love the challenge of researching; and writing articles offered at Citizendium.

Just some things to think about...and finally here's a link to wikiHow statistics and it is fact based [1] or [2] or [3] US statistics only.

Note: I started this message earlier but had to re-post as someone had edited the current Citizendium discussion page. Mary Ash 04:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)MA

Article moved from mainspace

I have of the lastest version of this article to Draft space and moved the last version written by User:Mary Ash to a separate space at Unidentified flying object/Mary Ash where she can work independently. This is a procedure that does have precedent, but has not been used often. It is my hope that time will heal all wounds and collaboration may continue. I will continue to monitor the talk pages of both articles. Please keep all conversation CZ:Professionalism. Thanks for your understanding and co-operation. D. Matt Innis 00:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, such a procedure was invoked by Editor ruling and carried out by Constables, not Constables acting unilaterally. Mary Ash has defied Editor rulings, a behavioral problem. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I think I can make an Editor ruling, or Milt can do so. It is unprecedented to move an article variant to a personal subarticle in namespace. You may move it to User: Mary Ash/Unidentified flying object, and do not link it. Please delete the UFO/Mary Ash. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I've archived this talk page

I've archived the talk page in hopes that we can start fresh. D. Matt Innis 00:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Protest

Matt, you've also archived discussions that had to do with community discussion about the scope of the article. I ask that the talk page be restored, and you reflect on whether you may be trampling on the rights of other Citizens to protect a defiant newcomer. Do not protect the article page; Engineering Editors have the matter in hand.

Please restore, to mainspace, the last version restored by Milton Beychok. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Ufology, MUFON

First, it appears that there is something called "ufology", apparently that of which skeptics are skeptical...I think. It really needs to be defined.

I have moved the following text here, regarding the Mutual UFO Network:

One of the publications is a scholarly review and is called the Journal of UFO Studies.

Scholarly by what definition? What general learned organizations recognize it? Could someone familiar with a citation impact data base verify that it is cited in general literature?

Hynek appointed Dr. Mark Rodeghier to head CUFOS. MUFON collects UFO reports, sponsors a yearly UFO symposium and offers a monthly journal called The MUFON UFO Journal. MUFON has written and published a recognized UFO investigation manual.

I suppose that if one put it in front of me, I'd recognize it to be a UFO investigation manual. "Recognized", however, implies more than self-recognition. In the article on interrogation, there are examples of widely recognized reference in criminal investigation and witness reports. Is this comparable?

MUFON field investigators are required to study the MUFON Field Investigator's Manual and pass a test before they can investigate UFO reports.

Ah, but who tests MUFON? Howard C. Berkowitz 01:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Protocols and manuals have to start some place. The CZ user guide was written for CZ users. It is expected that users learn how to use the guide. It is accepted as being "the guide".

Scientists set up testing protocols, and they follow standard procedures, and they are accepted. For along time doctors treated patients without changing bloodstained clothing or washing their hands. It was accepted protocol. Later it was discovered the doctors unknowingly spread germs to their patients caused by accepted protocol at the time.

MUFON has established a set protocol for dealing with investigations. Here is a Wikipedia link telling about scientific protocol: [4] I do believe MUFON has established a good protocol for examining UFO cases based on the link given.

You have to draw the line some place when it comes to all things and you have to accept that MUFON is trying to appropriately investigate reported UFO cases.

Mary Ash 02:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Mary Ash

Center for UFO Studies offers a peer reviewed (juried) journal referenced in the article. See The Journal of UFO Studies is the only refereed ::scientific journal dealing exclusively with the UFO phenomenon. A full table of contents is provided for both series. (Click on a year to see the contents of that year's issue} Link: [5]

I have read the journal in the past but not recently. The articles were rather boring but very scientific. LOL!...said Mary Ash (talk)

First, you have referred before to a CZ: User Guide. Note that link is in red. There is no such single document.

Second, scientific testing protocols are set out in peer-reviewed journals and subject to validation. Just as an example, http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4098.txt is a testing protocol that I coauthored and was subject to independent validation. We have an Approved article on the strict process of randomized controlled trials. Rating raw intelligence also deals with a representative categorization system.

Again, I remind you that CZ does not consider WP authoritative. As has been pointed out, WP doesn't consider WP authoritative.

In no way do I, or CZ, "have to accept MUFON is trying to appropriately investigate reported UFO cases." This is another case where you tell CZ what it must do, such as accepting your work in progress flag, your reverts, and your deletes without explanation. First, by your use of "skeptic", there seems to be a distinction between "unidentified flying object" and "ufology". Second, my initial searches show that MUFON is essentially self-validating. I can't find their reports cited in general scientific journals, and the reports come across as anecdotal and not meeting minimum engineering standards of validation.

Your link to the Journal of UFO Studies gives no information about the refereeing process, the independence, or quality of referees.

" For along time doctors treated patients without changing bloodstained clothing or washing their hands. It was accepted protocol. Later it was discovered the doctors unknowingly spread germs to their patients caused by accepted protocol at the time." Umm...yes. Ignaz Semmelweis, who died tragically in 1865. Anything more recent? Oh, I suppose we could go to Lister or Halsted.

Make up your mind if this article is about unidentified flying objects or a defense of ufology. It can't do both and meet CZ: Neutrality Policy. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I should add that as an Engineering Editor that contributed to the article, I could not nominate it for approval without the agreement of two other Editors. That doesn't preclude me from guiding, and even making rulings, within my expertise.

Milt Beychok is also an Engineering Editor, who has not made other than copy edits to the article. He has called for your being banned for repeatedly defying Editor rulings. I have not yet done that, but I am quite willing to say that some of the sources of information are self-validating at best, and you have repeatedly removed other, sourced contributions without discussion.

I am going to rule that the "Skeptics" section be removed until there is a clear definition of what the skeptics are supposed to be skeptical about. At the present time, I regard many of your statements in violation of CZ: Neutrality Policy in emphasizing UFOlogy organizations, which are not the subject of the article. I'm not even going to try to edit your WIP article with its dump of MUFON material, and do not recognize it as a legitimate part of mainspace. A protest has been placed about Dr. Innes' action as infringing on Editor responsibilites. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:44, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Protest acknowledged. Meanwhile, until we have a resolution, anyone can continue working to improve this article while the powers that be resolve the editorial dilemma as well as determine the repercussion for my actions or lack of actions. D. Matt Innis 03:09, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Matt, please acknowledge whether you will abide by the ruling of Engineering Editors, perhaps not banning but certainly directives on content and style (e.g., rewriting citations, removing text without discussion). I hope "anyone can continue working" doesn't mean that you are telling Editors they have no special authority. Remember, I'm not the only Editor concerned with this. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:14, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Of course, Howard. All the same rules still apply. Please remain Professional and be civil, refrain from complaining about other users, and do not write anything inflammatory. Authors need to recognize the authority of editors and Editors gently-guide. Editors need to be familiar with Low level Administration of Authors. Especially the part about helping authors (which Milt certainly did). I assure you, had Milt asked me to block any author, I would (he knows I have before), but the the final determination is at the discretion of the constable. I need to be able to document why and as I consider extenuating circumstances, I can't execute that request in good conscience considering the behavior on this page. I assume Larry designed it that way for a very good reason. I suppose we'll soon find out. That is not saying that I won't do it under new or different circumstances as required by the rules. D. Matt Innis 03:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

In that case, I point to the first entry on the talk page, Talk:Unidentified flying object/Archive 1#Added metadata and some notes, in which I offered gentle guidance. Indeed, I created articles, such as extraterrestrial intelligence, to help contextualize. Later, I questioned MUFON sole sourcing for Talk:Unidentified flying object/Archive 1#Shapes; note that the peer-reviewed material that I added to the article, dealing with the perceptual psychology of shape recognition, was removed without initial discussion.

I explained that the initial author does not set the scope of the article, which was not accepted. "The article is about reported characteristics of what UFOs look like. " Hayford and I tried to explain that CZ writing style was not what the new author believed, in Talk:Unidentified flying object/Archive 1#AI disagree: This is a straight up objective style or reporting. While Hayford is not an Editor, I fully support his guidance on style.

With a later revert, the statement was made "Removed: To recognize a previously seen object, the visual system must overcome the variability in the object's appearance caused by factors such as illumination and pose. Developments in computer vision suggest that it may be possible to counter the in£uence of these factors, by learning to interpolate between stored views of the target object, taken under representative combinations of viewing conditions. Daily life situations, however, typically require categorization, rather than recognition, of objects. Due to the open-ended character of both natural and arti¢cial categories, categorization cannot rely on interpolation between stored examples. [6]

"Unneeded as the NUFORC cites witness reports. Only the witness can evaluate what they saw and I am sure most can figure out the difference between a circle, triangle or light. Also, Davenport does weed out obvious hoaxes. "

"Sorry, but I cannot accept blanket acceptance of NUFORC. You will note that I am adding material to the beginning of the article from the 1997 symposium on physical evidence -- which Vallee attended -- and will be adding material from intelligence disciplines. I'm afraid, that after examining NUFORC and other ufology group reports, they do not rise above the anecdotal level. From that symposium and other sources, I am giving reasonable criteria. This article is not about ufology and the ufology groups do not set the rules of evidence -- that is a ruling on which I will expand if necessary. The statement "I am sure most can figure out the difference between a circle, triangle or light" is simply not accurate.\

I request you move the "Draft" article back to mainspace, and Unidentified flying object/Mary Ash to User Talk: Mary Ash/UFO. This restores our usual naming convention. At present, the /Mary Ash version does not meet the requirements of mainspace, and it is simply confusing to have two versions. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:33, 24 July 2010 (UTC)