User talk:Peter Schmitt/Archive 1

Peter Schmitt

Current talk page

1, 2, 3

 Where Peter lives it is approximately: 09:20

Welcome!

Welcome, new editor! We're very glad you've joined us. Here are pointers for a quick start. Also, when you get a chance, please read The Editor Role. You can look at Getting Started for other helpful introductory pages. It is essential for you as an editor to join the Citizendium-Editors (broadcast) mailing list in order to stay abreast of editor-related issues, as well as the mailing list(s) that concern your particular interests. It is also important, for project-wide matters, to join the Citizendium-L (broadcast) mailing list. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forums is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any constable for help, too. Me, for instance! Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and thank you! We appreciate your willingness to share your expertise, and we hope to see your edits on Recent changes soon. David E. Volk 22:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

speedy deletions

Hi Peter, glad to see that you're joining in! I'm the Constable who does most of the Speedy Deletes these days -- please put a *reason* for the request in each of the templates that you fill out. With Caesar, who's done a ton of them lately, I don't bother to *check* his reason in most cases, but I do like to see that it's there. So I'd appreciate it if you'd fill out the templates for the ones that you've already requested.

For instance, here's a template that Caesar just filled out:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Contributors_number

Thanks, Hayford Peirce 16:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I deleted that particular template after I wrote the message above.

Look, when you make a speedy delete by putting in the speedy delete thing, it is a little more complicated than I remembered, since I've been busy deleting templates for the last couple of months instead of marking articles with the deletion request. When you have a template, or, I guess, anything else that you want a speedy delete on, this is what you add to the page:

{{speedydelete|REASON|~~~~}}

THEN you delete the word REASON and replace it in the center of the new template with your own text, for example,{{speedydelete|I'm sick and tired of looking at this damn template and I ain't gonna take it anymore!|~~~~}}, leaving the four tildes in place. This should then give you:

{{speedydelete|I'm sick and tired of looking at this damn template and I ain't gonna take it anymore!|[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)}}

I'm frankly not up on the difference between <nowXiki> and <noiXnclude>, but I suggest your check this page here, and maybe you'll understand it better than I do:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Speedydelete

In any case, I'll now delete that template that you wanted me to.Hayford Peirce 21:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have added a short explanation of this to CZ:Article Deletion Policy. Peter Schmitt 22:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I saw that -- thanks! I've discovered as a Constable that there are *lots* of places where instructions are not quite as clear as we might like -- I've had to rewrite some of them myself. Hayford Peirce 00:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Renaming Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to Neighbourhood (topology)

Peter, you do not need to delete or redirect either of them. You simply need to "move" (also known as "rename") Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to to Neighbourhood (topology). However, before you can do that, Neighbourhood (Mathematics) really should be made into a CZ articles which it is not at the moment:

• Neighbourhood (Mathematics) needs to at least have subpages and a Metatadata page before it is a CZ article. Also, the edit page of the main article page should have {{subpages}} written as the very top line.

If you wish, I think I could straighten it out for you ... but both you and Hayford Peirce should first stop making changes to avoid our having edit conflicts. Milton Beychok 21:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• I tried renaming/moving first, but it did not work because the target already existed (as a redirect).
• Well, the Metadata page was already missing when I started to rewrite the article. I wanted to finish the edit before trying to do this (this would be the first time ...) However, {{subpages}} was (and is) already at the top. Peter Schmitt 22:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure I can do the Talk suppage and the Metadata template and straighten out the Move. Do you want me to try? Milton Beychok 22:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Why not -- I can delay my "first time". (I'll stop editing until I hear from you) Peter Schmitt 22:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Neighbourhood (topology) exists and it has a Metadata template and subpages. I also re-formatted the Related Links subpage and redirected the old Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to the Neighborhood (Disambiguation) page. Milton Beychok 23:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. (I will have to edit some of these subpages.) But how did you succeed and overwrite the redirect? Moreover, we now have some "double" redirects from subpages to "Neighbourhood" (a redirect to "Neighbourhood (Disambuigation)") which redirect to "Neighbourhood (topology)". It probably would be best to delete these unnecessary subpages?! My beginner's humble impression is that the process of moving is a little complicated and yet perfect. Peter Schmitt 23:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)To change a redirect page, simply go into its edit page and redirect it to the new place. As for Neighborhood and Neighbourhood, they should both be redirected to Neighborhood (Disambiguation). The reader then clicks on Neighbourhood (topology) or another choice on the DAB page. That is not a double redirect .. that is how it should work. Must go now. Be back in about 4-5 hours. Milton Beychok 00:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

That was (and is) so. What I meant are redirections such as: Neighbourhood/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (Mathematics)/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (topology)/Bibliography. These redirects can be edited. But does a redirect need a "Bibliography" subpage?? (no hurry! and probably not important anyway. I'll go to sleep ;-) Peter Schmitt 00:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Peter, when an article is moved (also renamed) correctly, all of the subpages and all of their Histories are also moved (and renamed), so there is no need to redirect them. Milton Beychok 04:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Garbage after moving

Milton, I think I understand this. I meant something different: The redirects created automatically by moving will usually be what one wants. However, in some cases (e.g. in this case) it leaves clutter: see Special:DoubleRedirects. "Neighbourhood" is a redirect to "Neighbourhood (Disambiguation)". It does not need -- and officially does not have {{subpages}} -- but there are redirects like
Neighbourhood/Bibliography (Edit) →‎ Neighbourhood (Mathematics)/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (topology)/Bibliography
which are neither sensible nor useful (but could be confusing if someone accidently hits them). They could, of course, be edited to
Neighbourhood/Bibliography (Edit) →‎ Neighbourhood (Disambiguation)/Bibliography
but I think that even this is not really useful. I think they simply should be removed (Maybe I should not be concerned?)
Peter Schmitt 09:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Peter, and I think they would normally be deleted.

In fact, I think some subpage and definition templates don't work correctly if redirect pages have certain subpages.

Caesar Schinas 09:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

speedy delete requests

I see that there are a whole bunch of speedy delete requests here: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests but when I click on one of them, there is no speedy delete template *at all* and no explanation of why it should be deleted. So I'll leave them until there's more info on each individual one. Hayford Peirce 13:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Hayford - this is because Peter has placed the speedydelete temlate on a redirect page after the redirect code. Due to a MediaWiki feature, this doesn't break the redirect, so you are being redirected to a different page. And due to a bug in MediaWiki, even if you do go to the relevant page - eg http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Neighbourhood/Definition&redirect=no - you won't see the template unless you try editing the page.

Peter - the speedydelete template should always be the very first thing on the page. Here's an example, until Hayford deletes it...

Caesar Schinas 13:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I learn a lot about technical matters these days ;-) Peter Schmitt 14:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, we all do... I see you've added a note to CZ:Article Deletion Policy‎; well done. Caesar Schinas 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Status change

Peter, some things only get updated after the Talk page is updated. Try adding 1 blank line to the Talk page. Other things just get updated on some sort of time schedule. David E. Volk 12:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, this worked. Incidently, I thought to have read something similar somewhere, but I tried it with the article page. (And by doing this I somehow managed to replace the article by a single subsection ...strange) Peter Schmitt 14:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

By pure chance, I just discovered this: Maybe a null edit deleted the text? Peter Schmitt 00:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Beware the null edit! One day I thought I would save time while adding the Biochemistry subgroup to dozens of pages, and instead of adding a space or blank line, I did null edits which deleted all text except for intro section. David E. Volk 11:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this is caused by editing just the intro section. If you click the main edit link which edits the entire page, I don't think it can happen. Caesar Schinas 12:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It happened, unintentionally (I thought that I added at least a newline). Because of "undo" it is not really a problem. However, I only noticed it a day later ... Anyway, before reading about "null edits" I sent an eMail to "bugs". Peter Schmitt 18:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

But had you clicked "edit", or "edit intro"? Caesar Schinas 06:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

And if you had changed the page in any way, it's not a null edit. Caesar Schinas 06:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not know precisely what I did. As I said, then I was not aware of the problem of a null edit, and my intention was to add a space or a line, but I did not pay much attention and, maybe, I failed to do so. However, it certainly was not the "edit intro" button because I edited a short subsection (as can be seen from the piece of text that got saved). I did not want to call the complete text for this purpose. Peter Schmitt 22:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, OK. It comes to the same. My point is that I think the problem with null edits can only occur if you are editing a single section, not if you edit the whole page. Still, it is a bug which needs fixing. I wonder if it happens on Wikipedia too... Caesar Schinas 05:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, note that if you change the page at all, even add one space or newline, it is not a null edit. Null edit means you changed nothing, and doesn't show up in the page history. Caesar Schinas 09:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That is not quite true. I just wanted to add the result of some experiments (and got an edit conflict ;-) The problem occurs not only with null edits, but also if one adds newlines and/or spaces at the end of the section. It seems that in these cases no diff is observed, and then (as with a null edit) the section edited is saved instead of the (unchanged) article. Obviously, if one edits the whole page this shows no effect, even if the bug may be present in this case, too. (So far, I received no reaction on my mail to "bugs".) Peter Schmitt 09:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh; I know the same problem occurs, but I just wanted to point out that it's not actually null if you make a change, and it then does show up in the page history. Like this.

As you say, the bug will have no effect if editing the whole page; I hadn't thought abut that. Perhaps it should be reported to the MediaWiki developers.

Caesar Schinas 09:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding spaces at the end of a line or newlines in the middle of the text seems to work (as in your example above), but then, of course, you have to be careful not to change the appearance of the text. On the other hand, a space or newline at the end of a page is neglected and does not show because no new revision is stored. Peter Schmitt 09:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

wikipedia does not show this bug (I tried it in the sandbox). Peter Schmitt 09:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Block cipher

The discussion on the talk page includes Roger Lohman asking:

Why is "Linearity" on the Related Articles page the only item lacking a definition? (An oversight most likely; It should be added before approval.)

and my reply:

I'm reluctant to attempt a definition of linearity. I understand some of the applications, but I'm not certain I'd define the general and abstract concept precisely right. Is there a math editor in the house?

Is that something you could fix? Sandy Harris 00:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what material you want to put there. In any case, I doubt that the title "Linearity" is a good choice. I wouldn't use it in mathematics, either (rather: "Linear method", or something more specific). In the case of cryptography, would "Linear cipher" and/ or "Nonlinear cipher" fit (or "Linear method(s) (cryptography")? Peter Schmitt 14:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen any of those terms used. The terms I know in crypto are "nonlinear" as an adjective describing some operation or entity, "nonlinearity" as the property, and "linear cryptanalysis" for a specific class of attack that works with linear approximations to parts of a cipher and massive amounts of data. If you want an example of how cryptographers use the terms, see [1] or the Mister & Adams paper cited in the block cipher article.

It wasn't me who either added linearity among the related topics (probably Howard) or suggested that it needed a definition. I'm just trying to cover all the loose ends so the article can reach approval. My guess would be that it is "nonlinearity (cryptography)" that should be there. My discussion of these issues is at Algebraic attack. Like RSA and several others, that could use a look from a math editor. Sandy Harris 15:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I shall think about it. But my current impression is that no such link is needed since "nonlinearity" only means "not being/using linear functions", and there is no proposal what should be put there. Peter Schmitt 23:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Continuum hypothesis

I understand your reluctance to nominate your own article, but many people have done so. It is perfectly acceptable for you to nominate the article as New Draft of the Week. Milton Beychok 17:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Milton, I just saw that you already did it. Thanks. Peter Schmitt 19:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Peter, now you should add yourself as a supporter and change the score to 2. That is perfectly acceptable and quite often done. Milton Beychok 20:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Non-Borel set

Peter, could you please look at my new article Non-Borel set? It is a short article intended for a reader not acquainted with descriptive set theory and curious to know whether a specific example of a non-Borel set can be constructed.

Your comments are welcome, the more so that I am a newbie here. Do you think this article should be developed further? If so, --- in which direction? If not --- can it be approved? Boris Tsirelson 17:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Colosseum of rhodes

I don't know where I got that, thanks for fixing it...Drew R. Smith 11:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi Peter. Thanks for your help. I did not know the proper functioning of the categories. Greetings.

Do find the current suggested lede for 'chemical elements' okay to put up as working version?

Peter:

I believe I responded to your latest comments my sandbox version of 'chemical elements'. If you're okay with that version as a working version for continued collaborative development, please indicate so on: http://en.citizendium.org:8080/wiki/Talk:Chemical_elements#Lede_revised_in_response_to_Paul_and_Peter.

If Paul does the same, I will seek Milton's okay to replace the current Main Article with it, so authors can start working on the article again.

You can view the current version of the sandbox article at: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Anthony.Sebastian/SebastianSandbox/Chemical_elements

Thanks for your input. Anthony.Sebastian 19:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Complex number

Congratulations on your first approval! (It is your first isn't it!?) Thanks for taking the lead on this one - hopefully there are many, many more to come. D. Matt Innis 03:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks (delayed after a week of absence). However, I consider it rather as the zeroth approval because it was a merely copyedit to repair an unfortunate formulation. Many more approvals? Unfortunately, this will not be easy -- so far, I did not see an article I would like to approve as it is. Peter Schmitt 17:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It was a good one for you to "get your feet wet!" I am glad to hear that you have high expectations for approvals of articles. We are actually counting on that quality in our editors. It will be a lot easier when we get three editor aprovals and you can actually edit the articles. In the meantime, you are welcome to edit all of them as you see fit and then when other editors arrive, you will have already made your changes.

However you decide to do it, I very much appreciate your efforts and expertise. Thanks, D. Matt Innis 16:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Crypto articles

There are several articles, all mainly my writing, about cryptography that could use a look from a math editor. Especially RSA and Discrete logarithm, since those are directly mathematical, but also Diffie-Hellman, Algebraic attack. International Data Encryption Algorithm and Block_cipher#Resisting_linear_.26_differential_attacks. Would you have time for some of those? Sandy Harris 14:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at finite field, I notice that the article defines only one type. However, in Discrete logarithm, I imply that there are multiple types. I thought that was the case, but now I'm confused. Can you clarify? Does one article need correction? Sandy Harris 15:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Replying to your comment on my talk page, I thought here were "multiple types" of finite field, one type defined modulo an integer (usually a prime, but does it have to be to make the multiplication work right?), another type defined relative to an elliptic curve, perhaps others I'm not aware of. Sandy Harris 11:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a finite field for each prime power p^d. You could say, the characteistic p is a type, or the "dimension" d is a type. For d=1 you have the residue class fields Z_p. Aren't elliptic curves inducing a group only (and not a field)? Peter Schmitt 13:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not know; the last formal math study I did was intro calculus & linear algebra about 40 years ago. Since the Diffie-Hellman protocol can use "oakley groups" based on an elliptic curve (e.g. See RFC 2309) and that protocol involves exponentiation, I'd assumed there were fields involved. There are; the RFC has, for example:

  "... a EC2N group with the following
  characteristics. ... The curve is
  based on the Galois Field GF[2^155]. The field size is 155. The
  irreducible polynomial for the field is:
         u^155 + u^62 + 1.
  The equation for the elliptic curve is:
          y^2 + xy = x^3 + ax^2 + b.

However, fields do not seem to be involved in the way I thought. I've really no idea if my text in discrete logarithm, "There are several variants of the problem for different types of field. The IKE protocol uses two variants, either over a field modulo a prime or over a field defined by an elliptic curve." is actually correct. Sandy Harris 18:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry that I did not answer earlier. I did not yet check how elliptic curves are used in cryptography (I only know that they are), but the excerpt shows that the are used over a finite field. That means that the values for x and y are elements of the field. The field used is the field with p=2 and d=255. Peter Schmitt 13:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Reply

I left you a reply on my talk page Drew R. Smith 11:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Article on Sturm-Liouville theory

Hello Peter,

I want to bring the WP article on Sturm-Liouville theory over to CZ and add a proof that solutions with distinct eigenvalues are orthogonal. Since I am not an expert in S-L theory, I asked a collaborator (who knows more about the topic than I) to look over the article to see if it could be improved. He is actually the one who developed the proof and has given his permission to put it on CZ. He looked over the WP article and said it looked OK to him, although he felt the mention of "the Arzela-Ascoli theorem and the spectral theory for compact operators" was more advanced than the rest of the article. So, with your approval I propose to do the following: 1) bring the WP article over to CZ, ticking the box that states it originated at WP. 2) slightly modify it to eliminate the reference to "the Arzela-Ascoli theorem and the spectral theory for compact operators." 3) create an addendum page for the proof and link the main article to it. If this sounds reasonable to you, let me know and I will proceed. Dan Nessett 18:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello Dan, you do not need anybody's permission. However, if you want my opinion: I have not checked all the details, but the mathematics seems to be correct. Therefore, since you are mainly interested in it for "your" proof as a subpage, I see no reason why not to import it. I think it would profit from more context (including historical context), and perhaps some reorganization. But since it is basically ok, this can wait until someone is ready to work on it or to replace it by a fresh article. (I may not forget that I'll have to register the /Proofs subpage.) Peter Schmitt 00:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to mention: I do not see a reason why the reference to Arzela-Ascoli should be eliminated. It gives, in short, the argument why a property holds. Peter Schmitt 10:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll go ahead and import it. When adding the orthogonality/normalization constant proof to the Associated Legendre Functions article, I used an Addendum subpage. Do you want me to wait until a Proofs subpage class is added or should I put the proof on an Addendum page and move it later when Proofs subpages are available? Dan Nessett 16:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I have registered /Proofs as article-specific subpage. This is (as I understand it) sufficient to use it. But it means that it is not listed with the "unused" subpages. But this can be changed later. Peter Schmitt 22:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the WP article to a sandbox so I can work on it. I have a couple of questions. As you can see from the imported S-L theory text, there are quite a few template references. What is CZ's policy on using WP templates? Should I move them over to CZ as well or should I attempt to create the effect those templates deliver using some other means? I have not imported the category links. Is this correct? I understand that CZ doesn't categorize as WP does. Dan Nessett 00:25, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not know of an explicit policy for templates. As far as I see, there is only one template used to numerate some formulas. In my opinion, at least in this case, this is not really necessary. The formulas can easily be addressed directly (or a number could be given without template). Peter Schmitt 19:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Categories are for organizational issues. However, there is the Related Articles subpage for such references. Peter Schmitt 20:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I was temporarily side-tracked by some work on another project, but have now imported the WP article on Sturm-Liouville Theory. At this point I don't know how to add the proof subpage. Do I just create the page Sturm-Liouville_Theory/Proof ? Should that page be named Proofs, rather than Proof (since there may be other proofs directly related to S-L theory that in the future might find a home there)? Do I need to do something so a Proof tab appears at the top of the article page? Dan Nessett 16:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved the article to Sturm-Liouville theory (lowercase t), and added the Proofs subpage (via Metadata). You can move (or copy) your page to it. I choose the plural in analogy to Catalogs, etc. If there should be another page then it can be moved to a subsubpage. But until then this is not necessary. Peter Schmitt 19:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I have added the proof to the Proofs page and linked to it from the main article page. One thing I noticed. The main article presumes eigenvalues are distinct. My understanding is S-L problems may experience degeneracy, for which a single eigenvalue corresponds to a subspace, not a single eigenvector. I have mentioned the assumption of distinctness in a note to the side of the text that quotes the proof. However, it may be better to explicitly mention the degeneracy problem more prominently in the main article. What is your view? Dan Nessett 15:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

After reviewing the conditions specified in the S-L article (i.e., regularity), I see eigenvalue distinctness is guaranteed. I have removed the comment mentioning the assumption of distinct eigenvalues that was next to the proof reference. I have inserted a comment about regularity guaranteeing distinct eigenvalues at the top of the proof. Dan Nessett 19:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

So one question seems to be solved. I have not read the pages, so I cannot comment. But there is a formal issue: CZ has the Related Articles and Bibliography subpages for "See also" and bibliographic references. So this information should be moved. Peter Schmitt 21:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Is the text: "Please sort and annotate in a user-friendly manner. For formatting, consider using automated reference wikification." supposed to remain in the Bibliography or do I need to do something to eliminate it? Also, I have modified 3 links in the proof that pointed to the WP article so they now point to the CZ article. Dan Nessett 21:36, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I remove the comments. (Though I don't think there is a "rule".) Peter Schmitt 21:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed the comments from the Bibliography. However, the text: "Please sort and annotate in a user-friendly manner. For formatting, consider using automated reference wikification." doesn't appear to be a comment. It appears to be automatically generated. Dan Nessett 21:59, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course, they are automatically generated. They are "comments" because they only show when the page is edited, but not when the page is viewed. Peter Schmitt 23:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

They appear when I view the page. That is, they appear automatically generated when the page is rendered. I am speaking about the Bibliography, not Related Articles. Dan Nessett 00:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't think of that -- that's the subpages template and only shows when you view the page. Peter Schmitt 00:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]

Peter. I see you have removed the Sturm-Liouville article from the Ready for Approval list. That's fine. You are the Mathematics editor with the responsibility for this article and I appreciate you taking the time to look it over. However, I assume you had reasons for determining that the article is not yet ready for approval. Would you indicate how the article needs to be improved in order to get it ready for approval. This will allow me to work on it. Thanks. Dan Nessett 17:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Dan, I thought you would notice that I changed the status of the article. It is a WP import with only minor edits. It is therefore not even "live". (You also forgot to check the WP box.) But even if there had been more edits, I would not want to approve it. I think that approved articles should be genuine CZ articles. Moreover, so far a status for subpages or the approval of subpages has not yet been implemented. Peter Schmitt 23:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Peter. How much we are required to change a WP article doesn't seem to be specified. At a minimum we must make it conform to the CZ cluster structure (see CZ:How_to_convert_Wikipedia_articles_to_Citizendium_articles), which I believe I have done. However, beyond that, there doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rules.

Nevertheless, I am willing to do the work necessary to make it approvable. Can you give me some guidance on what is required? I may be able to get some help from John Fletcher (who did the orthogonality proof, the 2nd orthogonality proof for the Associated Legendre functions article and collaborated with me on the 1st Associated Legendre functions proof), if I can get a good description of what is required. As a retired theoretical physicist he is much better qualified than I on the details of S-L theory. Dan Nessett 23:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Look at Category:CZ Live and CZ:The Article Checklist for explanation of status. Of course, the WP attribution has to stay as long as the article is an edited version of the WP article even if it is status 1 or 0. But, in addition, as I have recently explained in the forum, I would seriously hesitate to approve an article of WP origin independent of its quality. I prefer original content. Peter Schmitt 19:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

John Fletcher once offered to write the S-L theory article from scratch. However, he stated that his viewpoint would be that of a physicist. There are a couple of topics that he said he was not competent to write about, e.g., the Arzelà–Ascoli theorem. I could contact him and see if he is still willing to do that. That would give us an original article, but it probably wouldn't reflect a pure mathematical point of view. Dan Nessett 19:38, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with a physicist's viewpoint (Paul usually has it). If something is lacking, it can be added, either to the article or in a separate page. In fact, both the applied and the historical perspective are missing in the current article. Peter Schmitt 11:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]

OK. I'll ask him if he is still interested. Thanks. Dan Nessett 15:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

{{Community without category}}

Hab jetzt mal reingeguckt und {{Community}} so geändert. Der Sinn von {{Community without category}} ist mir immer noch nicht ganz klar. --Daniel Mietchen 14:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Das heißt, Du hast die Funktion, nach deren Sinn ich eben im Forum gefragt habe, auf CZ: beschränkt. Der Sinn von "without" ist der, dasselbe Template -- unabhängig von einer Bedingung -- ohne Eintragung einer Category zu verwenden. Ob noch jemand über die ursprüngliche Absicht und geplante Verwendung Bescheid weiß? Peter Schmitt 14:48, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

a speedy delete question

Hi, Peter, I just deleted a bunch of items you had put up for speedy delete. There's another one, however, showing on the page but when I go to:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Cream_tea/Related_Articles

I can't find a template for it *anywhere*. What's the story on this? Hayford Peirce 17:00, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Hayford. I only marked "Datalog of British cuisine" which I moved to "British cuisine/Catalogs" where it belongs. I did not mark Cream tea/Related Articles. But it has "Template Speedydelete" on the edit page.
I think the following happened: The Related Articles of Sandwich, Whisky, Marmite all pointed to "Catalog of British cuisine" and transcluded the Definition which was marked "speedydelete". Then you deleted this definition, and it wae no longer present to be transcluded in Cream tea. This poses three questionss:

Why is the Template still listed for Cream tea?

How to remove the Category from the page?

How to avoid that pages get deleted because they transclude the speedydelete request?

You remember. It already happened once that files wer listed for deletion which did not have the template. Perhaps then it was for a similar reason. Peter Schmitt 19:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Daniel wrote a reply to me on my talk page about this with an explanation. I don't understand it, of course, but I'm sure that you will. Between the two of you, you will probably work out something or other so that it doesn't happen again. Cheers! Hayford Peirce 19:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the Speedy delete template may be fixed now. I just transcluded daniels test article into my sandbox and the speedy tag is only showing for his test page. Don't know what you did, but it seems to be working. Drew R. Smith 00:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow. How brilliant of me. I'll take a look and see what can be done... Drew R. Smith 01:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Article on Associated Legendre Function

Hi Peter,

Before a Proof subpage existed, I added a proof to the Associated Legendre Function article. I put it into an Addendum sub-page. Now that Proof sub-pages are available, I would like to move the proof to a Proof sub-page. However, I don't know how to create a Proof sub-page, nor do I know how to delete the Addendum sub-page when it becomes empty (or whether deletion is appropriate). I would also like to clean up the Proof sub-page (when I move the material to it) by getting rid of the "See Also" and "References" section and moving the relevant text to the Bibliography and Related Articles sub-pages. Can you help me? Dan Nessett 15:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

To create a Proofs subpage you have to enter it into the Metadate (tab1, however, older Metadata don't list this).

Then you can move the subpage (using Move). This is better than copying the text because it retains the page history.

The redirect created by the move is no longer needed. Mark it for speedydelete.

I have done all these steps. Peter Schmitt 22:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I will get to work cleaning things up. Dan Nessett 22:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed: All subpages should begin with {{subpages}} . This provides the grey box and is needed for the subpages system. Peter Schmitt 22:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved the reference given in the original addendum sub-page to the Bibliography sub-page and eliminated the See Also section on the Proof sub-page (the articles quoted were already on the Related Articles page of the main article). I indented the Orthonormality proof so other proofs that may be added later fit logically. I added the {{subpages}} template call to the Proof sub-page. Dan Nessett 22:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that I updated the link on the main article page to point to the proof on the Proofs sub-page. Dan Nessett 22:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi Peter. Paul Wormer and I have been trying to get the Associated Legendre Functions article approved. Since you left for 2 weeks at about the time we decided to go for approval, we asked Jitse Niesen if he would do the necessary editorial work. However, we have not heard from him for almost 2 weeks. He has not even acknowledged the request. So, both Paul and I are wondering if you would be willing to do the editorial work on the article? Also, I asked Jitse if he would work on the approval of the Sturm-Liouville theory article. Would you be willing to do the approval work on that article as well? Thanks. Dan Nessett 16:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

As I said in the forum thread: Of course, I shall cooperate. However, it may be that you will need some patience. You certainly noticed that many topics are discussed at the moment -- theyd distract and take time. Moreover, I'll be away again next week, with limited time and online access. Peter Schmitt 22:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Peter. Now that I have decided to concentrate on the work I originally came to CZ to do, I wonder if you could give me a rough estimate of when you will have a chance to look at the Associated Legendre Functions and Sturm-Liouville articles. I realize you are busy with other matters, both inside of CZ and outside it. However, these articles were submitted for approval over three weeks ago and I am simply trying get an idea when they should make it to the top of the queue. This will give me the opportunity to plan how to spend my time on other projects. Thanks. Dan Nessett 16:24, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Citizendium charter drafting commitee nomination

Hi Peter, You've been nominated by a fellow Citizendium member to be a candidate for election to the Citizendium charter drafting committee.

If you haven't been following the discussion in the forums, we're getting ready to establish a charter for Citizendium that outlines the project's goals, ideals, and basic structure. To get the process moving, we put together a plan for electing a group of Citizens to compose a draft of the charter, which will then be submitted for community review. You can find more about the plan here.

You've been nominated by another Citizen to be a candidate for election to that committee. The next step is up to you: you may either accept or decline the nomination by going here and following the instructions at the top of the page.

If you have any questions, just let me know. --Joe Quick 15:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Charter drafting candidacy

Hi Peter,

Thanks for accepting your nomination to be a candidate for election to the drafting committee for the Citizendium charter.

If you'd like, there is a provision in the plan that provides a place for you to compose a position statement. You are not required to do this in order to be a candidate for election to the committee, but it would be helpful to others during the voting period. Even if you don't compose a statement before the election period concludes, should you be elected it might be helpful for other members of the committee to know what you feel are the most important issues to address with the draft. You can find a red link to the page where you can write your statement here, along with instructions for doing so.

If you have any questions, just let me know. --Joe Quick 14:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Internet deletion template

I'm all ready to make the deletion BUT do you want to *also* delete the Talk page that is associated with it? Hayford Peirce 01:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

It turns out there is a way to move clusters without leaving a redirect behind

Peter. Take a look at how to move a cluster without leaving behind a redirect.

Drafting nomination

I was surprised to receive messages telling me I'd been nominated, seeing as I've been essentially inactive for months. I was even more surprised to see, on searching (which took some time), that I'd been nominated weeks ago. Odd that, as I've looked at that list a few times. the mind works in strange ways.

Anyway, as you seem to be the one who nominated me, I thought you were the person to ask whether an inactive member with quite limited time is appropriate. Peter Jackson 10:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the history must transclude (is that the right word?) the present version of the subpage into past versions of the main page. Confusing. Peter Jackson 16:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Why I am interested in getting the S-L theory article approved

Peter. I think this particular issue is best discussed off-forum . As I mention in the forum message I posted this morning, the proof of orthogonality of solutions to regular S-L DEs is related to the orthogonality of the Associated Legendre functions. This relationship arises because the Legendre DE is an instance of the the more general S-L DEs. My interest in the Associated Legendre functions arose when I was studying quantum mechanics. The text I am using simply declares that Associated Legendre functions are orthogonal and provides, but does not derive, the normalization constant. When I searched the web, I could find no proof of orthogonality nor a derivation of the normalization constant.

Working with John Fletcher, we developed a proof of the orthogonality of the Associated Legendre functions and a derivation of their normallzation constant. John then pointed out that these functions are solutions of the S-L DE. When we also couldn't find a proof of S-L solution orthogonality on the web, John produced the proof.

Originally I attempted to get these proofs attached to the WP articles. But various self-appointed content monitors declared that proofs were not welcome on WP. This seemed contrary to the evidence, but I did not want to get into an edit war. So, I looked around for other ways to host the proofs. CZ was one of those options.

Why am I interested in getting these proofs approved? For the same reason that other authors want to get their articles approved. So someone doesn't come along at some future point in time and scribble all over them.

Finally, I chose this particular example because the other example infuriates me so much that I am concerned I will say things I later regret. This particular incident is not of that kind. I am not infuriated, but I do think there is a general policy question that the incident illustrates. Dan Nessett 21:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

In regards to John learning mediawiki markup. Yes, I could do the markup for him. However, the last time I did this, for the 2nd Associated Legendre functions orthogonality proof, he supplied me with the equations in MS Word. The work converting it to mediawiki markup was tedious and required as much of his time to proof my changes as it would have been if he did the markup himself. So, I told him I wasn't interested in doing that again. I hope he decides to do the article, because he knows orders of magnitude more about mathematical physics than I. If he decides to do the article, I am hoping he will decide to work on other things. That would be good for CZ.

In regards to adding material on the physical and historical perspective, I think I will wait until John decides before doing that. If he decides to rewrite the article, what is the procedure for replacing it? I don't want to get into the same situation we had with the Internet article.

Let me once again emphasize that my remarks on the S-L theory article in the forum thread were not directed at you personally. While I think the procedures for approval require some changes, I think you have behaved professionally and with patience. If I seemed irritated at times in some of my comments, that was the result of the other unmentioned incident that still makes me angry when I think about it. Dan Nessett 22:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Concerning the first part: I know all that. But (1) adding good content should be more important than approval, and (2) I have already told you that, at least for now, I am not sure if the approval of a page can include the approval of a subpage. Concerning the second part, I wonder why your friend should bother to help you when you shy away from the work. Moreover, doing this conversion will help you to get practice in wiki and mathematics markup. And practice you will need when you contribute more articles. And that is what you want to do, isn't it? Peter Schmitt 00:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

How can we discover whether the approval of a main article includes approval of subpages? Actually, my friend wouldn't create the article just to help me. He would do it because he is interested. In regards to wiki and mathematics markup, I have that pretty much under control. I created the markup for the two orthogonality proofs attached to the Associated Legendre functions article and the one attached to the S-L theory article. The work is taking an MS Word document and converting it.

Finally, I intend to contribute to CZ in a number of ways, one of which is to create mathematics articles. However, my interests are probably more along the lines of tutorials (if they ever become legitimate material in cluster subpages), rather than mathematical proofs. I also hope to contribute by helping with the technical side of CZ, specifically, helping fix some bugs in the code; helping them set up a technical infrastructure so we can test bug fixes and develop some useful extensions; and helping them refactor the CZ specific modifications into an extension so we can more easily upgrade to higher versions of the software. Where I spend my time depends on where I can make the most useful contributions with the least amount of thrashing. Dan Nessett 00:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I relayed on to John your comment that the existing article requires enhancements in the physical and historical areas. He responded that the history of mathematics is a specialist area, about which he knows little. Would you be more specific about what you are looking for? If John decides to write the article, I might be able to research the history of S-L theory and add that part. Dan Nessett 03:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Briefly:
Subpages are already legitimate material. They quite likely will need as much or more mathematical markup than main pages.
History is not required, I mentioned it as a possibility to extend the import so that it allows a higher status. But, of course, historical material (if available) is always nice to have, though not every article will be suitable, and in some cases history deverses a separate article.
In the particular case of S-L "history" means, for instance, when and why have the equations been first investigated, where does the name come from, who were major contributors, ...
Peter Schmitt 08:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

[unindent]

Thanks. I have left a request with the Approvals Manager to clarify whether approval of an article implies approval of its subpages. With regards to the history issue, I will relay your comments to John. Also, so we can make the article as good as possible, do you happen to know any references that would provide answers to the historical questions you raise? I see on your user page that you are interested in the history of mathematics. Dan Nessett 16:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)