Talk:History of England/Archive 1

Move

Moved from Britain to keep in line with other projects such as U.S. History and France, History. Denis Cavanagh 10:06, 16 December 2007 (CST)

England

The introduction seems wrong to me - I've never heard of 'prehistoric England', and that country, when it did come into existence, certainly did not control the rest of the island from the outset (Scotland was a separate country until 1707). Not quite sure how to reword, though. Another problem is the title 'Elizabethan Britain' - there was no such place, as Elizabeth I was Queen of England but not Scotland. John Stephenson 06:01, 2 June 2008 (CDT)

I'll fix some of it. Richard Jensen 07:30, 2 June 2008 (CDT)

Poor conceptual issues in this article

Nowhere is there any proper discussion of political and legal territorial changes, in particular those relevant to the long debate on at Elizabeth II concerning the correct name for the country (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and how the declining fortunes of the Empire led to those changes. If you want to start an articles on something with gaps left in it, then fine: but it is not fine to set out the entire structure and ignore basic concepts. It needs to be rethought conceptually how to manage this properly. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 06:52, 3 June 2008 (CDT)

Honestly Martin, if you disagree with something change it yourself. It gets draining when all you ever hear is criticism. Denis Cavanagh 07:46, 3 June 2008 (CDT)

It is the role of editors to guarantee standards on CZ. Some editors write a lot, others do not. As I am very busy writing things every day for my work, it is a bit tiring for me to write much on CZ as well. My comments were directed at Richard, who has refused to accept the political and legal realities that there is no coherent entity called Britain. I am sorry if you feel offended, Denis, but I think this is a serious issue. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:57, 3 June 2008 (CDT)

I'm not offended Martin, just weary. I was the one who moved most of this article from the 'Britain' article and added a little on Lloyd George and post WWII. Other users have done the rest. This article is small and will grow, but it doesn't help when somebody stands over you with a whip telling you to get to work! Denis Cavanagh 11:20, 3 June 2008 (CDT)

Although I must add, you do have a point. The same structure has been taken for other articles like the polish or french history articles. It generally helps to get the framework up for a large survey article like this, and the trickier conceptual arguments belong to their own article. (A broad survey would largely talk about Kings, castles, wars, political reforms etc. rather than go into detail about the abstractions.) Denis Cavanagh 11:29, 3 June 2008 (CDT)

The intention was not to stand over with a whip, but to point out that a basic issue of "what is Britain?" is missing. If it helps, I can promise to add a section on citizenship and nationality changes in the post-colonial period, which seems central in terms of the history of Britain and its identity. I cannot do it before July, though. What is also needed is something about reconfiguration of territory in the post-colonial phase, which is basically post-1945. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:16, 3 June 2008 (CDT)

Abandoned article?

I am not a history student but I feel ashamed that this article has been left in this unfinished and patently inadequate state. Apart from its multiple gaps and omissions, it is depressingly light on sources and evidence, and gives a general impression of academic arrogance. Surely the subject deserves something better? Are there no CZ British historians ?Nick Gardner 22:46, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree it's inadequate, but I feel we also need to establish what it's about. The opening seems to confuse Britain with British Isles, and mentions Ireland - but as it goes on it becomes confined to Britain　and, increasingly, England. Material may have to be moved to other articles so that 'history of Britain' focuses mostly on that island, at least until the establishment of its political constituents. Arguably as well it should be 'history of Great Britain', as 'Great Britain' is the name of the island. John Stephenson 06:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Nick, quite a lot of articles on CZ are haphazard and barely started. It is a construction site after all. Denis Cavanagh 13:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It's okay with me if the article is moved to History of Great Britain. CZ:Naming Conventions states that this should be the proper name of the article anyway. Russell D. Jones 14:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

If what you are saying, Denis, is that if only I am patient I will find that CZ historians will continue the construction work, in due course, I should be content to stand back and wait. If so, I hope you will forgive my impatience. Anyway, in the meantime I have drafted in two paragraphs concerning prehistoric and Celtic life, and I have altered the opening section to define what seems to me to be the appropriate scope of the article. Although there are obvious differences between the histories of Ireland and of Great Britain, their histories are so interwoven (up to the end of the 19c) that it does not seem sensible to try to disentangle them. I hope the CZ historians will find what I have done helpful. If I should decide to attempt any further drafting, I will try to resist the danger of a pro-English bias.

I have no opinion about the choice of title provided that it is not obviously inconsistent with that scope (after all - as Norman Davies points out in The Isles - a certain amount of terminological confusion seems unavoidable). Nick Gardner 17:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I was merely saying that there an awful lot of articles on CZ like this, its not that they are 'abandoned' exactly, but that there aren't enough people here to write them. And your doing a good job, hope it didn't seem like I was suggesting otherwise! Denis Cavanagh 17:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Revised structure

I have now set up what I hope is a usable structure for this article - that is to say a structure that will enable people to make ad-hoc contributions to the article while taking account of its developing balance - and without having to undertake any unwanted commitment to the article as a whole.

I have also set up a fairly comprehensive timeline with a view to its use as a means of avoiding tedious cataloguing of events in the main article, and as a way of providing links to the sources drawn upon in the main article.

I expect to put forward a few further chunks of drafting from time to time, and I hope that others will do likewise - Nick Gardner 11:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Although it may appear otherwise, I have not (so far) deleted text, but merely hidden it. Nick Gardner 14:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

As the drafting has progressed, I have been able to crystallise my approach to the problem of collapsing into one article the vast volume of data that constitutes the history of Britain. I have considered the solution of making it simply an index to a large number of subsidiary Citizendium articles - which is the approach that is mainly used in U.S. History but at the present rate of progress, there is no prospect that that approach would serve the reader well at any time in the near future. It occurred to me that an article that gave the reader a broad appreciation of the developments that have played a significant part in the creation of Britain as it is now might be useful to some categories of reader. So, in the main article, I have tried to envisage the reader as a busy visiting martian who is looking for guidance about the happenings that contributed to the creation of Britain as it is now, without distracting material about transitory developments, however they may have been at the time. I have tried to meet the needs of those who want an index to more detailed material by using the timelines subpage for that purpose. I envisage that in the fulness of time the external links in those pages would be supplemented, or replaced by, internal links to CZ articles. Also, I plan to use the Addendum subpage to provide statistical data in support of statements in the main article.

I have put forward this explanation because I realise that I have stumbled as an outsider into an approach that differs from that used in other CZ history articles, without consulting existing history authors or editors. Should this give rise to serious objections from professional historians, I should feel bound to withdraw and leave the field to them. If so, I do ask to be told as soon as possible. - Nick Gardner 10:25, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The article is still developing, so no objections here about that. I'll point out, though, that the article does start out talking about the British Isles generally, but by the section on Anglo-Saxons has narrowed itself to the History of England. I also noticed that the sections are getting longer (Tudors, for instance, is over twice as long as earlier sections, perhaps rightfully so, but the trend bodes ill for the future sections). I agree with your analysis of the problem Nick. The topic is so huge that it would be impossible to write a short article on it (some multi-volume works probably don't do it justice). So (I think) these over-arching articles would serve us and readers better as introductions and portals to a variety of more detailed subtopics. Howard struggles with this same issue with the Vietnam War group of articles. Russell D. Jones 12:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

(Parenthetically and professionally I was struck by the periodization schema used, i.e., royal succession. U.S. historians use a schema called the "Presidential Synthesis" in which periods of time are broken up by presidential administrations. It was modeled on the British historians' use of royal succession as an explanatory schema, but it strikes me now how arbitrary and artificial royal succession is as an explanatory schema when I had previously thought it rather natural [probably because I had never given it much thought]. But it does seem to make more sense to have longer periods of time [i.e., Georgian England] than four/eight year administrations to explain trends. Russell D. Jones 12:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC))

Rename?

I have no idea when "Britain" came into being, but I'll bet it wasn't until the modern era (post 1500); and I think the "Britons" are different from the "Brittish," (no? I never use the term "Briton" to refer to modern-era "British"; am I wrong?) and neither (or maybe one might) include the Celts, Picts, Jutes, Angles, Danes, Normans, Saxons, Irish, Welsh, or Scots. So, having stirred the pot, what exactly is "Britain, History" about? What is "Britain" in this context? It seems this article is more about the History of the British Isles or (nod to Winston Churchill) the History of the English-Speaking Peoples. Is a page rename in order? Russell D. Jones 00:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Russell: Fascinating! Your point is well taken, but you raise a question to which, I fear, there is no entirely satisfactory answer. To paraphrase Churchill, all I can really say in defence of the title is that "all the alternatives are worse"! There is a 7-page examination of the problem by the historian Norman Davies, who then evades the issue by adopting "The Isles" as the title of his 1999 history. But to follow his example would cause Googlers unnecessary suffering!!

To get back to your point, the Oxford English Dictionary defines "Britain" as

The proper name of the whole island containing England,Wales and Scotland, with their dependencies, more fully called Great Britain, now also used for the British state or empire as a whole

and adds an explanation that partially supports your point

After the Old English period, "Britain" was used only as a historical term until about the time of Henry VIII and Edward VI when it came again into practical politics in connection with efforts made to unite England and Scotland; in 1704 Janes I was proclaimed "King of Great Britain", and this name was adopted for the United Kingdom at the union in 1707 ...

As you may know, the term "Briton" (sometimes spelt "Brython") was the name of a Celtic tribe believed to have been among the country's earliest inhabitants, which is probably why the Romans called the place "Britannia". "Briton" is nowadays treated as synonymous with "British" although it is considered an old-fashioned or poetical term (as used, for example in the song "Rule Britannia"), and you are right to suggest that many Englishmen prefer to call themselves English. However,to use that word to refer to all of the country's inhabitants is guaranteed to bring forth howls of protest from the Scots. Unfortunately, "English-speaking" is too broad because it would include Australia and Canada (and I hear that a version of English is still used in the United States ?!) - and I understand that the word "England" did not come into use until around 700 to 800 AD. To meet your point as far as I can, I propose to alter the definition to "An account of some of the happenings that have influenced the development of the country now known as Britain" and to add something of the sort to the opening paragraph - unless someone comes up with a better alternative. Nick Gardner 08:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

What did George Bernard Shaw say about BE and AE language variants? "A single culture separated by a common language?"

Do you like the title "Britain, History?" Russell D. Jones 13:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It was there when I started and I have yet to hear a decisive reason for changing it. Nick Gardner 16:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I would like to join in here, but I'm having difficulty making any sense of what you're saying :) D. Matt Innis 17:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

What do you find difficult? I am saying that I believe the existing title to be a sufficiently good indication of the content of the article that it should enable readers to find what they are looking for. Anything that meets that criterion is OK by me. (Although a search for semantic perfection is an interesting pastime, I think it is more important to spend time on the content of the article.) Nick Gardner 05:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm American. I was just playing along with your humor ;-) Unless, of course, it wasn't meant as humor! D. Matt Innis 17:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

That was slow of me, Matt! - and I do now appreciate the joke. It's good to share a chuckle - that is something we do have in common. Nick Gardner 20:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Another American here. I don't know much about Britain, England, or any of that, but I think that the article is describing the history of all three countries (England Scotland and Ireland) is it not? If so, shouldn't the article be titled History of the British Isles?Drew R. Smith 11:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No. The article is about "the happenings that have contributed to the creation of the country now known as Britain". An article about the British Isles would have to include the history of Ireland after its independence from Britain, which is excluded by that definition. Nick Gardner 12:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)